Depostion of Mr. J. Donald Walters: September 21, 1995
AAN note: This is the fifth of seven (7) parts of the deposition of Mr. J. Donald Walters. This part is dated Tuesday, September 21, 1995. Many subjects are covered in a random manor. Oftentimes, the same subject is brought up again in other sections.
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Important Note:
All questions, accusations, and allegations, implied or otherwise, have not yet been ruled upon in a court of law. Some of them may never be. In the United States, defendents are innocent until proven guilty. These are public documents available at the San Mateo county courthouse, in California, USA. Mr. Walters is a public figure, and these documents are presented here for informational purposes.
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1 IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF SAN MATEO
3 --o0o--
4 ANNE-MARIE BERTOLUCCI,
5 Plaintiff,
6 vs. No. 390 230
7 ANANDA CHURCH OF GOD
REALIZATION, a California
8 not-for-profit corporation,
et al.,
9
Defendants.
10 _____________________________________/
11
12
13 DEPOSITION OF
14 DONALD WALTERS
________________________________
15
Volume V; Pages 704 - 899
16
Thursday, September 21, 1995
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REPORTED BY:
20
HOLLY THUMAN, CSR NO. 6834, RPR
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TOOKER & ANTZ
24 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS
131 STEUART STREET, SUITE 201
25 SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA 94105
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1 I N D E X
2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
3 MR. GREENE: 708
4 --o0o--
5 EXHIBITS
6 PLAINTIFF'S FOR
IDENTIFICATION PAGE
7
8 25 Photocopy of pamphlet entitled 748
"The New Dispensation"
9
26 Declaration of LD in Opposition 757
10 to Special Motion to Strike.
11 27 Transcript headed "Summer, 1983" 758
12 28 1-page document headed "Yamas" 824
13 29 Photocopy of "The Art of Creative 839
Leadership"
14
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MARKED SECTIONS OF TRANSCRIPT
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1 --o0o--
2 BE IT REMEMBERED that on Thursday, September 21,
3 1995 commencing at 10:09 a.m., thereof, at Tooker & Antz,
4 131 Steuart Street, Suite 201, San Francisco, California,
5 before me, HOLLY THUMAN, duly authorized to administer oaths
6 pursuant to Section 2093(b) of the California Code of Civil
7 Procedure, personally appeared
8 DONALD WALTERS,
9 called as a witness, who, having been previously duly sworn,
10 was examined and testified as hereinafter set forth.
11
12 --o0o--
13 APPEARANCES
14 HUB LAW OFFICES, 711 Sir Francis Drake Boulevard,
15 San Anselmo, California 94960, represented by FORD GREENE,
16 Attorney at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf of the
17 Plaintiff.
18 JON R. PARSONS, Attorney at Law, 2501 Park
19 Boulevard, Suite 207, Palo Alto, California 94306-1925,
20 represented by JON R. PARSONS, Attorney at Law, appeared as
21 counsel on behalf of the Defendants.
22 EDWARD W. PLISKA, Judge (Retired), Attorney at
23 Law, COREY, LUZAICH, GEMELLO, MANOS & PLISKA, 700 El Camino
24 Real, Millbrae, California 94030, was present as the
25 Referee. (Present when indicated.)
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1 (Appearances, cont'd)
2 Also present when indicated were ANNE-MARIE
3 BERTOLUCCI; DR. PETER VAN HOUTEN; ASHA PRAVER; JOHN NOVAK;
4 JOHN SMALLEN; and SHEILA RUSH.
5 VIDEO OPERATOR: ROBERT BARBAGELATA, Dan Mottaz
6 Video Productions, (415) 731-1300.
7 --o0o--
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1 September 21, 1995 10:09 a.m.
2 --o0o--
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. GREENE
4 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: This is the beginning of
5 videotape number 12 in the deposition of Donald Walters in
6 the matter of Anne-Marie Bertolucci versus Ananda Church of
7 God Realization, et al. Today's date is September 21, 1995,
8 and the time is 10:09 a.m.
9 The video operator is Robert Barbagelata. We're
10 back on the record.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. Good morning, Mr. Walters.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. You are still under oath. You understand that?
14 A. I understand.
15 Q. And that means that the testimony you give here
16 this morning is of the same force and effect as it would be
17 if you were in a courtroom in front of a judge and jury,
18 notwithstanding the comparatively less formal circumstances
19 that we're in now.
20 You understand that?
21 A. Quite right. I understood the judge was going be
22 here this morning.
23 Q. He will probably be here, but we're going to
24 proceed now.
25 Preliminarily, I'm going to ask you some questions
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1 based on your book entitled The Path.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And to your knowledge, has that book been through
4 any revisions?
5 MR. PARSONS: I'm going to object. It does
6 misstate his testimony already from the other day, so it's
7 been asked and answered to that extent. Lack of foundation.
8 You may respond.
9 THE WITNESS: No, it hasn't been.
10 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So that there -- to your
11 knowledge, there's only one copy of your book that has been
12 published. You have not in any way revised any chapters or
13 any of the language in your book?
14 A. No. Obviously, you see two books right there.
15 One is simply a photographically reduced one.
16 Q. Okay. And that's the paperback book?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. I want to ask you initially some questions about
19 the meaning of what a guru is. And what I'm going to do is,
20 I'm going to give you the big book. All right?
21 And it's -- I've checked, and so far as I can
22 tell, the pages track one another, so we ought to be able
23 to --
24 A. They do.
25 Q. You know that they do?
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1 A. Yes, quite right.
2 Q. So let me direct your attention to page 181.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Now, you see there where there's the
5 footnote by the asterisk at the bottom of the page?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And where it starts on the second complete
8 sentence:
9 "On the spiritual path, however, it," referring to
10 the word "guru," "refers to the satguru or true teacher" --
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. -- "that enlightened sage who has been
13 commissioned by God to lead the spiritually fit seeker
14 out of darkness and into the experience of supreme
15 truth. While the seeker may have many lesser teachers,
16 it is written that he can have only one such divinely
17 appointed guru."
18 Based on that definition, is your understanding
19 now of the term "guru" any different from that expressed on
20 page 181 of your book?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Now, also a guru is God's gift to a devotee.
23 Right?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And a guru is someone who has realized God, and
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1 who helps others realize God by his teaching, by his
2 example, and by his inspiration.
3 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Compound; parts and all
4 of that have been asked before.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 MR. PARSONS: Therefore, I object. But you may
7 respond.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, your guru is -- I have a
10 hard time pronouncing his first name.
11 A. While you're trying to get it together, I'll go to
12 the restroom. I'm afraid I've been going quite a bit today.
13 MR. PARSONS: I will say, by the way, and on the
14 record, Mr. Walters is having a personal convenience problem
15 today that I anticipate will require him to, on very short
16 notice, go to the bathroom today, probably repeatedly.
17 I understand that might interfere with some of
18 your questions, and we'll try to accommodate that, where he
19 will go and immediately come back and resume.
20 MR. GREENE: That's fine. It's no different than
21 what happened the other day.
22 MR. PARSONS: I believe we'll find a greater
23 frequency.
24 MR. GREENE: So we'll go off the written record
25 and keep the video rolling.
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1 (Discussion off the written record.)
2 THE WITNESS: For the record, I feel not too well
3 today, so we'll do our best.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. I appreciate that.
5 Mr. Walters, why is it that you are of the opinion
6 that a guru is God's gift to a devotee?
7 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It calls for a
8 narrative. I will permit the witness to answer, hopefully
9 as succinctly as possible.
10 A. Yes. It's not a narrative. It's what Yogananda
11 said. And he's my guru; I accept his teachings.
12 Q. Now, have you thought about his teaching in that
13 regard independently in your own mind at all?
14 MR. PARSONS: Wait, wait. Excuse me. Objection.
15 In what regard?
16 MR. GREENE: In any regard.
17 MR. PARSONS: Have you thought about -- okay.
18 THE WITNESS: All my life.
19 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And so what I'm asking you
20 is, based on your own thinking, what do you understand that
21 statement by Yogananda to mean; namely, that a guru is God's
22 gift to a devotee?
23 MR. PARSONS: You may --
24 THE WITNESS: Well, you're asking for a lecture.
25 Would you like a lecture?
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1 MR. PARSONS: Oh, well then I will object that it
2 calls for a narrative.
3 THE WITNESS: It does.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, I would like an answer.
5 MR. PARSONS: If you can answer in some succinct
6 manner.
7 THE WITNESS: You see, we are all a part of God.
8 But most of us are looking outward, not inward. The source
9 of our being is God; God, as Jesus Christ said, is within
10 you.
11 Most people look for the truth outside. And when
12 a person has turned within and attuned himself with that God
13 within, then he becomes a gift to mankind. That is to say,
14 God would give to all mankind through all mankind, but he
15 can give most perfectly through one who is in tune with him,
16 as opposed to just the average person on the street.
17 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. And so then in your
18 opinion, a guru is one who is more attuned to God. Right?
19 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Misstates his testimony.
20 You may respond.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, it does.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. And a consequence of the guru's
23 greater attunement to God is that God can work through the
24 guru and affect other people. Right?
25 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Calls for speculation,
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1 lack of foundation, misstates his testimony.
2 You may respond.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And that one of the --
5 well, let me withdraw that.
6 In your view, is one who is a guru acting
7 according to a particular role?
8 MR. PARSONS: Object. The question is ambiguous.
9 Role, whether they're acting with respect to a particular
10 role. You may respond.
11 THE WITNESS: That's right. I don't understand
12 the question.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, let me approach it like
14 this:
15 You have talked about -- well, I'll withdraw
16 that.
17 You consider yourself to be a spiritual leader in
18 some regard, don't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you consider being a spiritual leader to be a
21 particular role in life, don't you?
22 MR. PARSONS: Well, I object again. We have a
23 definition of a particular role in life? I have no idea
24 what that question means.
25 If you can formulate a response, you may do so.
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1 I'd request you to define "role," though.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. I can't form a response. I
3 don't know what you mean.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. I'll get that out later.
5 I think it will be easier.
6 Then let me ask you this: What is it about a
7 devotee's relationship to a guru that causes the guru to be
8 a gift from God to that devotee?
9 MR. PARSONS: Wait, wait. I've got to object to
10 that, too.
11 What is it that causes? So you're asking now for
12 third parties' opinions that there is no foundation for this
13 witness to opine as to?
14 THE WITNESS: I have no basis for answering that.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. Mr. Walters, you've told me that
16 a guru is God's gift to a devotee. Right?
17 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. The record speaks
18 for itself. Just go on and ask your question, rather
19 than --
20 MR. GREENE: I am. That's my question.
21 ++ MR. PARSONS: Okay. Again, as I have in the past,
22 I'm instructing the witness not to answer -- not to testify
23 to what his testimony has been in the deposition. And I'm
24 instructing him not to answer that question as phrased.
25 I have no objection to you stating whatever you
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1 want and then asking him a question.
2 MR. GREENE: Okay. And all instructions, please
3 mark them, Holly.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Walters, you told me earlier that you
5 subscribed to Yogananda's statement that a guru is God's
6 gift to a devotee.
7 And so what I'm trying to find out -- and I asked
8 you some questions, and you told me that yes, you'd thought
9 about that.
10 And I was trying to find out what your independent
11 thinking is. I mean, I assume that you don't slavishly
12 follow the teachings of Yogananda without giving the
13 teachings careful consideration. And indeed, that's what
14 you've spent most of your life doing.
15 So what my question to you is, is, what is it
16 about the relationship between a devotee and a guru that
17 causes you to adopt the statement that a guru is God's gift
18 to a devotee?
19 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Again, I object. The
20 question just makes no sense whatsoever to me.
21 THE WITNESS: It doesn't really to me either.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. So you don't under -- are you
23 telling me that you -- is it your testimony that you have no
24 understanding of what that sentence means, that a guru is
25 God's gift to a devotee?
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1 MR. PARSONS: Well, he's saying that he doesn't
2 understand it enough to answer under oath with the video
3 camera rolling.
4 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, make your objection.
5 THE WITNESS: I can also say, what I don't
6 understand is the gist of your further question.
7 MR. GREENE: Q. I think my question is very
8 clear.
9 A. Not to me.
10 Q. And my question to you is, in your view, what is
11 it -- why is a guru God's gift to a devotee?
12 A. You see, that's a question I have not contemplated
13 all my life, nor have I contemplated up to this moment.
14 So the question doesn't -- it doesn't seem like an
15 important question, a valid question. It doesn't make much
16 sense to me.
17 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So you have -- although
18 you adopt Yogananda's statement in that regard, you -- in
19 your view, you don't really understand it. Is that your
20 testimony?
21 MR. PARSONS: Objection.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't understand your --
23 MR. PARSONS: I'm objecting. I'm objecting.
24 Object as to "that statement" that he has
25 adopted. We've had 50 statements so far, so I don't know
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1 what "that statement" is. It misstates his testimony.
2 But you may go ahead and respond, to the extent
3 you're able to answer the question. And I would like the
4 question read back so it's in front of you.
5 MR. GREENE: That's okay. I'll repeat the
6 question.
7 Q. The question is, Mr. Walters, is it your testimony
8 that you are unable to tell me anything further about
9 Yogananda's statement that a guru is God's gift to a
10 devotee, aside from the fact that you subscribe to it?
11 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Now, that's a different
12 question.
13 I object to that question in that it calls for a
14 narrative, and it misstates his testimony, because this is a
15 brand-new question.
16 You may respond.
17 THE WITNESS: It's a brand-new question. It's not
18 what I said, it's not what you were saying, it's not germane
19 as far as I can understand. Try to say it again.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, would you answer the
21 question, please?
22 A. I try. I'm trying to. I don't understand the
23 question.
24 MR. PARSONS: I'd ask the question --
25 MR. GREENE: I'll move on. I'll move on.
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1 Q. In your view, is God's will more likely to come
2 through the guidance of a guru?
3 MR. PARSONS: Excuse me. Objection. More likely
4 than what? What's the comparison you're asking this witness
5 to make?
6 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, make your objection, and
7 then we'll proceed with the answer.
8 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Well, I object. The question
9 is incomplete. I'm going to instruct this witness not to
10 answer until he has a complete question in front of him.
11 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, that is an improper
12 instruction. You know that's an improper instruction. You
13 make your objection, and then the witness answers the
14 question.
15 Q. Would you answer the question, please? And I'll
16 repeat it for you. Okay?
17 And the question is, is it your view that God's
18 will is more likely --
19 A. Than --
20 Q. -- to come through the guidance of a guru than
21 through the guidance of anyone else?
22 A. That's your question. That's a clear question.
23 Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Now, isn't it true that Yogananda never
25 referred to himself as a guru?
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1 MR. PARSONS: Objection.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. Based on your readings and your
3 interactions with the man?
4 A. It's amusing when you try to bring philosophical
5 and spiritual issues down on a level of logic. They just
6 don't apply.
7 Q. Mr. Parsons -- I mean, Mr. Walters, would you
8 answer the question?
9 A. I can explain it.
10 MR. PARSONS: Well, what I would like, he is
11 entitled to an answer to this question. So I would like,
12 though, the question to be read back so that you're clear
13 what it is.
14 MR. GREENE: No, I'll repeat the question.
15 Q. And what the question is, is, isn't it true,
16 based on your interactions with Paramhansa Yogananda and
17 your readings of his works, that he did not refer to himself
18 as a guru?
19 A. Would you like a narrative?
20 Q. No. That's a "yes" or "no" answer, and I would
21 like an answer.
22 A. No, it's not a "yes" or "no" answer. Very
23 different from a "yes" or "no" answer.
24 MR. PARSONS: Well, answer as succinctly as you
25 can while responding to the question.
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1 THE WITNESS: You see, he wasn't functioning from
2 a level of ego. He was like a clear window through which
3 the divine worked through him.
4 In that sense, a great artist, for example, is
5 great to the extent that he can feel he's not doing it, but
6 it's happening through him.
7 A spiritual teacher, or a leader, and especially a
8 guru, has -- is great to the extent that he doesn't feel
9 that he's doing it himself. He asks for that guidance, he
10 asks of that light, that truth, shine through him.
11 In that sense, Yogananda used to say not only that
12 he wasn't the guru, but we were not his disciples.
13 But in this world of illusion, where we see forms
14 and so on, we see the body, the personality. He was
15 reminding us, don't look at the personality; look at that
16 source from which I draw my inspiration.
17 So he was not saying, no, Yogananda is not the
18 guru in the sense you mean.
19 In other words, that's what I was trying to say,
20 you're conflicting two levels of spiritual reality that
21 really have no relationship to law. We're talking of
22 spiritual law, which is another matter. It's a fundamental
23 spiritual teaching that the ego principle has to be removed
24 before you can even be considered a guru.
25 So in that sense, no one is a guru. God alone is
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1 the guru. There's a Sanskrit hymn, "Guru Brimha, Guru
2 Vishnu." That hymn, in toto, says, God is the guru.
3 Q. Right --
4 A. And to that God, I bow in the form of my human
5 guru.
6 Q. So if I understand you correctly, Mr. Walters,
7 what you're saying is that some people are able to act as a
8 more pure vessel or a more pure channel for God than
9 others. Right?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And that one of the things that gets in the way of
12 someone being able to act as a channel for God is one's ego
13 or personality. Right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And so then a spiritual leader in the sense
16 that you used the term a few moments ago is someone who has
17 attained a greater ability not to allow his or her ego to
18 get in the way of God coming through him or her. Right?
19 MR. PARSONS: I object. That misstates the
20 witness's testimony. It also is argumentative. I think it
21 calls for a narrative.
22 I will permit the witness to answer the question
23 to the extent he can formulate a response, but I would
24 request that the question be read back so that it's clear.
25 MR. GREENE: I'll just repeat the question.
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1 MR. PARSONS: Well, it'll be a different question,
2 though, if you do.
3 MR. GREENE: Well, Mr. Parsons, I'm just going to
4 conduct my deposition.
5 THE WITNESS: I can answer.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. If you can answer it, would you
7 please?
8 MR. PARSONS: Do you have the question in mind?
9 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. You are referring back to
10 my statement that I am the spiritual leader of Ananda.
11 That's not a position I uphold or proclaim or
12 force on anybody. I just happen to be in that position. To
13 me, a position of leadership is no more important than a
14 position of clerk. It's just a function.
15 So to take it further, to say, is it your claim
16 that a spiritual leader has such and such, no, I don't claim
17 anything like that. I claim nothing for myself. The only
18 thing I have going for me is that I lived with a great
19 master.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So let me ask you this,
21 Mr. Walters: Do you consider yourself to be an expert on
22 the teachings of Yogananda?
23 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague as to "expert."
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, vague as to "expert." I don't
25 have an answer.
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1 MR. GREENE: Q. Do you know anyone else -- well,
2 withdraw that.
3 You've published, what, 63 books?
4 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Asked and answered.
5 THE WITNESS: Approximately.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. Approximately? And all of those
7 books, in one way or another, have related to the teachings
8 of Yogananda, haven't they?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And there isn't anybody else in the Ananda
11 community that has published anything near like that
12 regarding the teachings of Yogananda. Isn't that right?
13 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Lack of foundation for
14 this witness.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes. That still doesn't address the
16 word "expert."
17 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, that's a different
18 question.
19 A. No, that was the question you asked first.
20 Q. No, no. The question is, Mr. Walters, to your
21 knowledge, has anyone else in the Ananda community published
22 63 books regarding the teachings of Yogananda?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, has anyone else in the
25 Ananda community published a book regarding Yogananda?
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1 A. I'm not sure. We have -- but they're not in the
2 Ananda community. It doesn't much matter. They're outside.
3 Q. Okay. I'm asking you about people within the
4 Ananda community.
5 MR. PARSONS: Vague as to definition of "in the
6 Ananda community."
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, but I'm not even sure.
8 MR. GREENE: Q. So is it your testimony that you
9 have no information at all regarding whether any Ananda
10 member has published a book, or any kind of writing, a book
11 or any kind of writing, regarding the teachings of
12 Yogananda?
13 MR. PARSONS: Well, object from the form, "is it
14 your testimony." He hasn't been presented with that
15 question, so I object to the form.
16 You may answer the question, but I'd like you to
17 have it read back, because we have different definitions now.
18 MR. GREENE: I'll ask the question again.
19 Q. And what the question is, is, to your knowledge,
20 has any Ananda member published any writing regarding the
21 teachings of Yogananda?
22 MR. PARSONS: Vague as to "Ananda member." Lack
23 of foundation.
24 Go ahead.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
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1 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Who?
2 A. Well, let's see. John Novak is certainly one. I
3 haven't given much thought to what books we have, but we
4 have also -- if you want to talk of members as people who
5 are not living in the community, we have three or four.
6 I don't -- I mean, I'd have -- I haven't come
7 prepared to look at a list of our publications, but Asha has
8 certainly written things. How much has been published, I'm
9 not sure.
10 But anyway, there have been other books.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. Let me ask you this question: To
12 your knowledge, has any other live-in Ananda member
13 published any book through either the Ananda Press or
14 Crystal Clarity regarding the teachings of Yogananda?
15 MR. PARSONS: Vague as to "live-in Ananda member."
16 Misstates his prior testimony.
17 You may respond.
18 THE WITNESS: You said "living," didn't you?
19 MR. GREENE: Q. No, "live-in."
20 A. Live-in. Well, I have answered as well as I can.
21 I don't have a list of our books before me, so I don't
22 really recall.
23 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this.
24 A. I've answered one, and a possible other.
25 Q. Has John Novak published any kind of writing
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1 through the Ananda Press or Crystal Clarity?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What's the name of it?
4 A. How to Meditate.
5 Q. All right. And John Novak is the husband of Devi
6 Novak. Right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And has Asha Praver published any kind of writing
9 regarding the teachings of Yogananda through either the
10 Ananda Press or Crystal Clarity?
11 A. You've asked writing. I was speaking of books.
12 She hasn't published a book.
13 Q. Okay. Has she published any kind of writing?
14 A. Whether we've published, again, my answer to that
15 is uncertain. But I'm not sure whether it was even done
16 through Crystal Clarity. It was more likely through our
17 church offices, in our magazines, that kind of thing.
18 Q. To your knowledge, is John Novak's book available
19 to the general public?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Now, I want to get back to the question I
22 was asking you about whether Yogananda ever said, "I am the
23 guru."
24 And you -- and what you told me, you described to
25 me, about what -- as I understand, what you described to me
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1 is what the role of a guru is. What a guru does.
2 And a guru is someone who has a superior ability
3 to act as a channel for God. Is that -- and when I say
4 "superior," I mean superior to other people.
5 Is that a fair layman's understanding of how a
6 guru acts as a channel for God?
7 MR. PARSONS: I'd like that question read back.
8 MR. GREENE: I'll repeat the question.
9 Q. What I'm trying to find out is whether or not, at
10 any time, to your knowledge, Yogananda identified himself by
11 use of the word "guru."
12 Not whether he discussed about what the role of a
13 guru was, and really how -- as I understood what you're
14 telling me is that Yogananda would say to you, as his
15 follower, that you're not to look at me as the source of
16 truth and the source of life. You are to look to God. God
17 is what the source of truth and the source of light is.
18 And so I understand that, and I understand that
19 was what you explained to me.
20 What I'm asking you is whether or not Yogananda,
21 to your knowledge, simply never referred to himself by or
22 with the label "guru."
23 MR. PARSONS: Could I have the question part read
24 back?
25 MR. GREENE: I will repeat the question.
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1 Q. To your knowledge, did Yogananda ever refer to
2 himself by or with the label "guru"?
3 A. The thing is, once we understood what he meant,
4 then very definitely, yes.
5 Q. Now, do you consider yourself to be a disciple of
6 Yogananda?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Asked and answered.
9 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Do you consider yourself
10 to have been or to be a disciple of Yogananda qualified to
11 transmit his teachings?
12 MR. PARSONS: Objection as to the term
13 "qualified." Excuse me one second.
14 Objection. It's also argumentative.
15 You may respond if you can formulate a response.
16 THE WITNESS: The world "qualified" is a very
17 relative and uncertain term. I would say that anyone is
18 qualified. On the other hand, to speak of absolute
19 qualification, no one is qualified.
20 He appointed me to teach for him. That meant he
21 felt that I was somewhat qualified. But I always try to
22 tell people that they, too, have to be instruments and to
23 express the teaching as they best understand it, because
24 that's how they also grow.
25 MR. GREENE: Q. When Yogananda appointed you to
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1 teach for him, that was when you were an SRF member.
2 Correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And when you were an SRF member, you pledged that
5 you would not transmit the teachings outside of SRF unless
6 you were authorized to do so. Right?
7 MR. PARSONS: Objection. That's been asked and
8 answered.
9 THE WITNESS: Not once. Many times.
10 MR. PARSONS: Right. It also misstates what he
11 said before.
12 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. I'm a disciple of
13 Yogananda, not of Self-Realization Fellowship.
14 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, at what point did Yogananda
15 empower you to teach on his behalf?
16 MR. PARSONS: Objection on the term "empower."
17 You may respond.
18 THE WITNESS: 1949.
19 MR. GREENE: Q. And how did he do that?
20 A. Just told me to speak on his behalf.
21 Q. Now, when you would speak on his behalf, did that
22 include initiating people into Kriya Yoga?
23 MR. PARSONS: That's vague as to time. Also, it
24 misstates his testimony.
25 But go ahead.
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731
1 THE WITNESS: I'll be glad to answer it.
2 He had me -- the first time he had me speak in
3 public, it was on his behalf, because he couldn't go. And
4 he had me give Kriya initiation also on that same day. This
5 was in May of 1949.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. Since May of 1949, have you
7 continued to transmit to others the teachings of Yogananda?
8 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's been asked and
9 answered many times.
10 You may respond yet again.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 MR. GREENE: Q. And since 1949, when you started
13 to transmit the teachings of Yogananda, has your approach to
14 transmitting his teachings changed?
15 MR. PARSONS: Vague as to what "approach" means.
16 If the witness has some idea in mind, he may
17 respond, but I'd also ask that the witness define what he
18 means by "approach" if he's going to answer the question.
19 THE WITNESS: I would say, just to make it as
20 brief as possible, I have refined, not changed.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So you've gotten better at
22 being able to do it --
23 MR. PARSONS: Objection. That misstates --
24 MR. GREENE: Q. Is that -- excuse me, Mr.
25 Parsons, let me finish the question, please.
731
732
1 MR. PARSONS: No, go ahead.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. Is that what you mean when you
3 say you've refined but not changed how you teach?
4 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection that it misstates
5 his testimony, but you may respond.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, it does misstate it.
7 How do I know whether I've improved or gotten
8 better? I say I hope I've gotten better. I've tried to
9 understand more deeply, and I hope that understanding has
10 gone more deeply. But I'm not the one to declare that.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. But that's been your
12 aspiration. Right?
13 A. Yes, of course.
14 Q. And included in that aspiration of refining your
15 ability to transmit the teachings of Yogananda, do you
16 include an element of honesty?
17 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Include an element of
18 honesty in his deposition of --
19 MR. GREENE: Would you state your objection,
20 Counsel?
21 MR. PARSONS: I'd ask the question be read back.
22 MR. GREENE: I'll repeat the question.
23 Q. Mr. Walters, what I'm asking you is that in the
24 course of your refinement of your ability to transmit
25 Yogananda's teachings, have you included an element of
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733
1 honesty?
2 MR. PARSONS: Objection as to the meaning of
3 "element of honesty."
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, it doesn't make sense to me.
5 MR. GREENE: Q. Do you have a personal definition
6 of what it means to be honest?
7 A. I'd like to know what you mean by it.
8 Q. I'm asking you.
9 A. No, I have to understand your meaning before I can
10 answer.
11 Q. I'm asking you, Mr. Walters, whether or not you
12 have a personal definition of the word "honesty."
13 A. Well --
14 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Let me just object.
15 Objection. I don't think there is one definition
16 of the word "honest." I think it's a situational thing --
17 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, make your objection. Do
18 not make speaking objections; do not suggest answers to the
19 witness by the form of your objection.
20 State your objection, and then the witness can
21 answer the question.
22 MR. PARSONS: Well, I don't think he can answer
23 this question.
24 MR. GREENE: That's not -- Mr. Parsons, that's not
25 your place. You make objections. You don't say what the
733
734
1 witness can do. The witness says that.
2 MR. PARSONS: No, it is my place to say when a
3 question is so argumentative and so ambiguous that it defies
4 a consensus of meaning such that any response any witness
5 would give to a question like that would be inherently
6 misleading. And that is my place, to point that out.
7 MR. GREENE: Just make your objection, Mr. Parsons.
8 THE WITNESS: It's also obviously an insulting
9 question.
10 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, do not interrupt the
11 witness. When he is giving a response, do not interrupt the
12 witness.
13 I want an answer from the witness, and I don't
14 want you to interrupt him.
15 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Be sure to respond to the
16 question.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm about to.
18 MR. PARSONS: Okay. I'd ask the question be read
19 back.
20 THE WITNESS: I understand it.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. You understand the question,
22 Mr. Walters?
23 MR. PARSONS: I want --
24 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, no. The witness just
25 said that he understands the question. I'm not going to
734
735
1 have you waste my time by engaging in obstruction and asking
2 for readbacks when the witness understands what the question
3 is.
4 THE WITNESS: As my lawyer, I'm virtually in a
5 position of student to my lawyer. I will listen to him, not
6 to you.
7 MR. PARSONS: That's right. And I want the
8 question read back.
9 MR. GREENE: I'm going to repeat the question.
10 Q. The question is this, Mr. Walters. A very simple
11 question, susceptible of a "yes" or "no" answer.
12 Do you have for yourself a personal definition of
13 the word "honesty"?
14 MR. PARSONS: Same objections. You may respond
15 subject to those objections.
16 THE WITNESS: There are two definitions. First of
17 all, honesty really means not truthfulness; it means honesty
18 of not dealing badly with customers, not cheating people.
19 What you probably mean is, truthfulness. And
20 obviously in these teachings, both would be important.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. So have you in the course of
22 refining your ability to transmit Yogananda's teachings made
23 an effort to be truthful when doing so?
24 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague as to "truthful."
25 THE WITNESS: Well, absolutely.
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736
1 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And when you use the term
2 "truthful," what do you mean?
3 A. To state the truth as clearly, as completely, as
4 understandably as I am able to do. To speak it from
5 whatever I know from experience, rather than only hearsay;
6 or if it's hearsay, then to say that it's hearsay.
7 It's not easy to answer questions of this nature,
8 but I think I've answered it moderately well.
9 Q. Okay. When you are making efforts to be truthful,
10 do you include in such efforts a component that admits of
11 the possibility of your own fallibility?
12 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's vague as to time,
13 it's vague as to situation, it's vague as to definition of
14 truthfulness, or whatever the word was. It's obviously
15 compound, it's argumentative.
16 I'd ask it be read back to see if I've missed
17 something, and then allow the witness to respond.
18 MR. GREENE: I'll repeat the question. I'll
19 repeat the question.
20 Q. The question is, in your use of the term
21 "truthful," and in the context of transmitting Yogananda's
22 teachings, do you include the possibility that you could be
23 wrong on any given subject, just as an abstract
24 possibility?
25 That's what my question is.
736
737
1 MR. PARSONS: Okay. I'd --
2 MR. GREENE: Do you understand the question?
3 MR. PARSONS: I don't. I'd ask the question be
4 read back as to your understanding -- what's "abstract
5 possibility," for example?
6 MR. GREENE: Q. Mr. Walters, do you follow what
7 I'm talking about?
8 A. Well, if you'll allow me to say so, I think I did.
9 MR. PARSONS: I object. It's vague -- no, I
10 haven't finished the objection. It's vague, it's ambiguous,
11 it's compound.
12 You may respond.
13 THE WITNESS: Well, I am going to respond in that
14 same sense.
15 It assumes that I ever claimed to be infallible.
16 I never claimed to be infallible. Therefore, at no time do
17 I not offer to everyone the possibility that I am wrong, not
18 only in spiritual matters, but as the leader of the
19 community, as the director of any project that I am in.
20 It's always a factor that I offer people and ask
21 them to take it into account that I certainly could be
22 wrong.
23 That includes my philosophical answers this
24 morning. I am doing my best. I can't claim infallibility
25 in anything.
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738
1 MR. GREENE: Q. Right. Thank you. I can't,
2 either.
3 A. Well, that's humble of you. I appreciate it.
4 Q. Now, after a guru dies, then disciples attune
5 themselves to him as a general proposition. Right?
6 MR. PARSONS: It's vague, calls for third-party,
7 lack of foundation for this witness, calls for speculation,
8 vague as to "attune," et cetera.
9 You may respond.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's not a legal question;
11 it's a philosophical question or a theological question.
12 But I can't speak for all disciples. I would say
13 that that's what they are expected to do.
14 MR. GREENE: Q. How about speaking for yourself.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And with respect to other disciples, they will
17 endeavor to attune themselves to Yogananda through --
18 meditation is one form; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. PARSONS: Well, wait. Objection. Have
21 question first.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. And also, through attunement to a
23 disciple, such as you, who is empowered by Yogananda to
24 transmit his teachings. Right?
25 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. We've got a
738
739
1 compound question. Calls for third-parties, disciples,
2 whoever they may be; asks this witness to speculate as to
3 third parties' intentions and actions and the motivation
4 behind those actions. Vague, ambiguous, compound.
5 Go ahead.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's not a legal question, but
7 I can answer it.
8 MR. GREENE: Q. Why don't you answer it for me.
9 A. I can try.
10 It seems to me that to be the disciple of a guru
11 means to be a disciple of life. To listen to anyone. If
12 you were to tell me a truth, that I would listen to it, or I
13 would at least weigh it in the balance and see if I feel
14 it's true or not.
15 So one of the things that I would weigh,
16 obviously, is fellow disciples. People who have been with
17 the master, who may understand things in his teachings that
18 I don't.
19 It would have to finally be approved or
20 disapproved by my conscience. I would not accept the
21 statement of any disciple as a substitute for that
22 conscience.
23 Q. Okay. Why don't you turn to Exhibit No. 2, page 7.
24 MR. PARSON: Let me see what Exhibit No. 2 is.
25 THE WITNESS: This is it right here. Got it.
739
740
1 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Starting at line 4, you
2 state, quote:
3 "Yoga teaches that after a guru's passing,
4 later-born disciples attune themselves to the guru
5 through meditation and through attunement with a
6 disciple, such as myself, who has been directly
7 empowered by the guru," close quote.
8 My question to you is, with this sentence in mind,
9 when you make a reference to "after a guru's passing,"
10 you're talking about after a guru dies. Right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And "later-born disciples," you're talking
13 about people who did not know that guru while he was alive.
14 Correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Okay. And "attune themselves," what do you mean
17 by that?
18 A. Well, I'd have to think about it. But this opens
19 up another line of inquiry. In other words, the students of
20 disciples, as opposed to just anybody who reads his books or
21 something like that.
22 They will usually get inspiration, particularly
23 from -- see, each disciple represents a different aspect of
24 the guru, just like a diamond with facets.
25 Q. Hold on, hold on, Mr. Walters. Let me interrupt
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741
1 you here and ask you, and use the whole phrase. Okay?
2 You talk here about how people who did not know
3 Yogananda attune themselves to him through meditation.
4 Right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And in the context of the Ananda community, that
7 has to do with meditation that ultimately you taught to
8 people. Right?
9 MR. PARSONS: Wait. Objection. Assumes facts not
10 in evidence, misstates his testimony, is argumentative.
11 Go ahead.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm not quite sure what you
13 mean.
14 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Let me --
15 A. Did I teach them? Yes, I taught them.
16 MR. PARSONS: Wait for a question.
17 MR. GREENE: Q. You were the original teacher for
18 the Ananda community. Right?
19 MR. PARSONS: Objection, "original teacher."
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. Yogananda was the original
22 teacher?
23 A. Also not me -- not him.
24 Q. God was the original teacher?
25 A. No. Many came through other teachers. Many came
741
742
1 through Self-Realization Fellowship.
2 So original teacher means, was I the first teacher
3 they ever had. Of course not.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. You were the founder of the
5 community. Right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you from that day to this day are the
8 spiritual director of that community. Right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Now, when you in the context of this
11 sentence that I read to you are talking about "attunement
12 with a disciple such as myself who has been directly
13 empowered by the guru," nobody else in the Ananda community
14 was directly empowered by Yogananda to transmit his
15 teachings. Correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. Okay. And when you use the term "attunement,"
18 that is a particular term of art, is it not, with respect to
19 your teachings?
20 MR. PARSONS: Do you understand that question?
21 THE WITNESS: I think so.
22 MR. PARSONS: Is "attunement" a term of art?
23 THE WITNESS: Is it which?
24 MR. GREENE: Q. A term of art.
25 MR. PARSONS: A term of art. Do you know that
742
743
1 phrase?
2 THE WITNESS: Sorry, I don't know that phrase.
3 MR. PARSONS: Oh. I object.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Within the context of your
5 teachings in the Ananda community, the word "attunement" has
6 a particular meaning or meanings, does it not?
7 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection as to "your
8 teachings," vague. Go ahead.
9 THE WITNESS: I've tried to find a term that would
10 be universal, and not just particular.
11 For instance, if you want to be an artist, you try
12 to attune yourself to art, to the teaching of the school you
13 attended, to the subject.
14 You try to attune yourself, rather than do it just
15 rationally.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So when you are using the
17 term "attunement," are you talking -- would you include in
18 the use of that term a focusing of all of your being on
19 someone such as yourself?
20 A. Certainly not.
21 MR. PARSONS: Wait, do give me an opportunity to
22 object.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. When you talk about attunement,
24 would that include focusing all of one's being on Yogananda?
25 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's vague, calls for
743
744
1 speculation.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it just doesn't mean much to
3 me. I don't understand it.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, let's go back to your
5 sentence.
6 A. I'll go to the restroom. I'll be right back.
7 MR. PARSONS: In fact, it's -- what time is it?
8 It's now almost 11:00.
9 MR. GREENE: Q. No, what I want to have
10 Mr. Walters come back. We didn't start until 9 minutes
11 after 10:00, and I want to go for an hour here.
12 So we will go off the written record here, and
13 keep the tape rolling.
14 MR. PARSONS: Okay. I'm going to take a break for
15 a moment. I want to consult with my client. You can keep
16 the records going if you want to, of course.
17 (The witness and his counsel left and re-entered
18 the deposition room.)
19 (Discussion off the written record.)
20 MR. PARSONS: Thank you.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. Mr. Walters, we're back on the
22 record. And I'd like to -- you are familiar with the
23 English word "honest"; right?
24 A. I think I referred to it pretty clearly.
25 Q. Okay. Let me ask you if included in your
744
745
1 understanding and use of -- and you have used the term
2 "honest" in your life. Right?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. Yes?
5 A. Of course.
6 Q. And you would include, to be honest would mean not
7 to lie. Right?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Objection. Because --
10 MR. GREENE: Q. And not to cheat. Right?
11 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's ambiguous and out
12 of context. It also misstates his testimony.
13 Go ahead.
14 THE WITNESS: No, but I answered that, and I said,
15 that's so.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And so it would include
17 not to cheat. Right?
18 MR. PARSONS: Same objection.
19 THE WITNESS: I said that.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Not to steal; right?
21 MR. PARSONS: Same objection.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. Yes?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And not to take unfair advantage. Correct?
25 A. Of course.
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746
1 MR. PARSONS: Same objection.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, directing your attention
3 back to Exhibit 2, page 6, take a look at it, please.
4 Okay. At line 13, you state in your declaration,
5 quote:
6 "Since ancient times, Yoga teachings have been
7 transmitted from a guru to qualified disciple through
8 the process of initiation, which transmits both the
9 teachings and the spiritual blessings to practice them
10 effectively. By this process, qualified disciples are,
11 in time, empowered to instruct and bless others."
12 Okay? Do you have that in mind?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. And then turning your attention to the next
15 page, and the quote from your declaration that I read to you
16 before, which is, quote:
17 "Yoga teaches that after a guru's passing,
18 later-born disciples attune themselves to the guru in
19 meditation and through attunement with a disciple such
20 as myself who has been directly empowered by the guru,"
21 close quote.
22 Now, with those statements of yours in mind, isn't
23 it true that you consider yourself to be a qualified
24 disciple to teach Yogananda -- to transmit Yogananda's
25 teachings?
746
747
1 A. I hope I am.
2 Q. Okay. And you consider yourself to be that, don't
3 you?
4 A. I don't really know.
5 Q. Is there anything about the statements in your
6 declaration that I just read to you that you consider, as
7 you sit here today, to be untrue?
8 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's compound. It's
9 also vague and ambiguous.
10 I'll ask the witness to respond to that
11 statement -- or question, statement by statement, or however
12 else --
13 THE WITNESS: Is there anything, he said. And I
14 say no, it's all true.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. It's all true. Okay.
16 Now, you are familiar with a person named Lila
17 Devi, aren't you?
18 MR. PARSONS: Objection as to the term
19 "familiar." I don't know what "familiar" means.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Do you know a person name Lila
21 Devi, Mr. Walters?
22 A. Mispronounced, LD.
23 Q. LD, thank you very much. And if I do
24 mispronounce something, educate me, and I'll try to say it
25 correctly.
747
748
1 A. All right. Are you going to try to attune
2 yourself with me?
3 Q. Of course. Of course I am. Because you know more
4 than I do.
5 A. Go ahead.
6 Q. And I have my own slant on things and my own slant
7 on life, as you well know. But you know a lot more than I
8 do about this stuff.
9 Now, LD has been --
10 A. LD. You did accept my correction.
11 Q. No, I didn't accept your correction.
12 MR. PARSONS: Excuse me one second.
13 (Discussion between the witness and his counsel.)
14 MR. PARSONS: I'm sorry, hold on one second.
15 Thank you.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. I'd like to mark this
17 next, which is 25, I think.
18 (Exhibit 25 was marked.)
19 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Now, looking at Exhibit
20 25, Mr. Walters, that is a pamphlet entitled "The New
21 Dispensation." Correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that's authored by you. Right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to
748
749
1 page 3. And you see the section there under the bold label
2 "Attunement"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. And you state there:
5 "Over the years, too, I've made a few specific
6 observations.
7 "For one, that those who serve this work
8 selflessly are those who gain the most from it;
9 "That those, again, who try to share with others
10 the light they receive gain more, spiritually, than
11 those who keep it to themselves. (As Paramhansa
12 Yogananda said," quote, within the quote, "'the
13 instrument is blessed by what flows through it,')"
14 close of internal quote;
15 "That they gain the most who seek attunement with
16 others more advanced than they themselves are on the
17 path;
18 "And that they gain the most, finally, who realize
19 that soul-attunement with this path is more important
20 than even long hours spent in meditation, without the
21 companion effort to establish such inner attunement,"
22 end of quote.
23 Now, you wrote those words, didn't you?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Asked and answered.
749
750
1 MR. GREENE: Q. And when you wrote those words,
2 you believed them to be true, didn't you?
3 A. I still do.
4 Q. Okay. And you did then; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. And when did you write this document? Do
7 you know?
8 A. You'd have to look at the copyright. I don't know.
9 Q. You don't know.
10 MR. PARSONS: Well, then your answer is, I don't
11 know.
12 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, see, there is no copyright
13 on this. And that's why I'm asking you, can you give me an
14 idea when in the progression of the 63 or so writings which
15 you have authored Exhibit 25 came?
16 A. This isn't really one of those books. It's
17 separate from it. It's a pamphlet.
18 It was probably in the mid '80s, but I don't know.
19 Q. Okay. So then taking the definition that "they
20 gain the most who seek attunement with others more advanced
21 than they themselves are on the path," you are the most
22 advanced person on the path in the Ananda community, aren't
23 you?
24 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Misstates his testimony.
25 MR. GREENE: Q. To your knowledge.
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751
1 MR. PARSONS: Well, okay. Misstates his
2 testimony. Lack of foundation for this witness to testify.
3 You may testify to the extent you can.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. How can you say who's more
5 advanced? I can't. Being spiritual director does not mean
6 I am necessarily the most advanced.
7 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. Well, there isn't
8 anyone else in the Ananda community who was directly
9 empowered by Yogananda to transmit his teachings. Correct?
10 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Asked and answered.
11 THE WITNESS: That's a separate question.
12 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, that's my question.
13 A. No. The question was, are you the most advanced.
14 Q. No, no, no, no. I'm asking you a different
15 question, Mr. Walters.
16 A. All right. Try it again.
17 Q. And my different question is, there isn't anyone
18 else in the community aside from yourself who is directly
19 empowered by Paramhansa Yogananda to transmit his
20 teachings. Right?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. And when you use the term "attunement" on line 6
23 of page 7 of Exhibit 2 --
24 A. I've got it.
25 MR. PARSONS: Well, you're better than I am. I
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1 don't remember all these things as well.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. Mr. Walters, are you with me?
3 Mr. Parsons, just catch along if you can.
4 MR. PARSONS: Where are we?
5 MR. GREENE: Q. Like I said, page 7, line 6,
6 Exhibit 2, when you use the word "attunement" there,
7 included within the meaning of your use of said term is that
8 they gain the most who seek attunement with others more
9 advanced than they themselves are on the path. Right?
10 MR. PARSONS: Objection. I'd like that read back.
11 MR. GREENE: I don't want it read back. I'll
12 repeat the question. And try to listen to the question,
13 Mr. Parsons.
14 MR. PARSONS: Well, the question is fatally
15 ambiguous.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. The question is, Mr. Walters,
17 that you include within the meaning of your use of the term
18 "attunement" on line 6 of page 7 of Exhibit 2, quote, "that
19 they gain the most who seek attunement with others more
20 advanced than they themselves are on the path," close
21 quote. Right?
22 MR. PARSONS: I object.
23 MR. GREENE: Make your objection, Mr. Parsons.
24 MR. PARSONS: I'm trying to. The statement you
25 have just read is not a definitional element of the term
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1 "attunement."
2 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, make your objection.
3 Don't testify, Mr. Parsons. Make your objection.
4 MR. PARSONS: It's ambiguous and unintelligible,
5 because you're mixing apples and oranges.
6 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, make your objection.
7 MR. PARSONS: May I?
8 MR. GREENE: Just make a concise, short, legal
9 objection, and then the witness can answer the question.
10 MR. PARSONS: No, I don't think the witness can
11 answer the question.
12 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, I'm not asking for your
13 opinion.
14 THE WITNESS: No, I can't.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. So you're telling me -- let me
16 ask you this question, Mr. Walters.
17 A. Try.
18 Q. In your use of the term "attunement" as spiritual
19 director of the Ananda community, you include the
20 definitions set forth on page 3 of Exhibit 25, don't you?
21 MR. PARSONS: Wait. Objection. I have to have
22 this thing read back to me. Your questions are simply not
23 making sense. Attunement as spiritual director? I don't
24 know what that means.
25 THE WITNESS: It doesn't make sense.
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1 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, let me just say it again so
2 you understand it, Mr. Walters.
3 A. It's not my lack of understanding. It's not a
4 clear question.
5 Q. It's a clear question, Mr. Walters.
6 As spiritual director of the Ananda community,
7 when you use in general the term "attunement," you use that
8 word with the definitions that are set forth on page 3 of
9 Exhibit 25, don't you?
10 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. It misstates the
11 page 3 of Exhibit 25.
12 MR. GREENE: Of Exhibit 25. You're confused,
13 Mr. Parsons. That's page 3, Exhibit 25. It says --
14 MR. PARSONS: Contains no definitions at all.
15 MR. GREENE: Oh, okay. That's fine.
16 MR. PARSONS: So --
17 THE WITNESS: There's no clarity in the question.
18 MR. PARSONS: Then don't -- he's got to ask a
19 question that makes sense.
20 THE WITNESS: In other words --
21 MR. PARSONS: Just wait till a question makes
22 sense before you respond, please.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. I'll try it some
24 more.
25 Would you look at page 36 Exhibit 25, Mr. Walters?
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1 MR. PARSONS: It's this one here. Just listen.
2 He doesn't know what he's doing. But wait till you've got a
3 question that makes sense, and then --
4 THE WITNESS: All right.
5 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So under the term
6 "attunement" on page 3, that's what you -- those are
7 statements of what to you that word includes. Correct?
8 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. It misstates it.
9 The witness can respond.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, it does misstate it. These are
11 a few specific observations that I've seen. This is what
12 happens. It's not a definition.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Now, those observations,
14 then, have to do with conduct that manifests attunement.
15 Correct?
16 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's compound as to
17 those observations; manifests, conduct, vague as to that
18 term.
19 You may respond.
20 THE WITNESS: I -- yes, I think so. I mean, I
21 have to really analyze this, but --
22 MR. PARSONS: Well, okay.
23 THE WITNESS: It's the way people behave if
24 they're growing. And if they aren't growing, they don't
25 behave that way. Put it this way.
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1 MR. GREENE: Q. And for people to be in
2 attunement in the way that you describe what that means on
3 page 3 of Exhibit 25, that results in their spiritual
4 growth?
5 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. That misstates it.
6 He's not describing what that means.
7 THE WITNESS: Nor is it a promise that they'll
8 grow. It's an observation.
9 MR. GREENE: Q. I'm not saying it's a promise.
10 A. It's an observation that people who are willing
11 are more likely to grow than people who are unwilling, to
12 put it in the simplest way possible.
13 Q. And people who are willing are also willing to pay
14 attention to what they're told by people who are further
15 along the spiritual path than they are. Right?
16 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Assumes facts not in
17 evidence, misstates his prior testimony, argumentative.
18 You may respond.
19 THE WITNESS: I would say that was true.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, LD --
21 A. Got it.
22 Q. I said it correctly?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. She's been with you for 18 years. Right?
25 A. I -- I don't know how long, but a long time.
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1 Q. For a long time. Right?
2 And you have never had sex with her. Correct?
3 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Goes to the privacy
4 grounds. There is no statement by LD in any
5 pleadings, in any declarations, which permits an inquiry
6 into the private relationship between this party and her.
7 I'm objecting. I'm instructing this witness not
8 to respond; not only for his privacy, but also hers.
9 MR. GREENE: Okay. Let's mark this as next in
10 order, please.
11 (Exhibit 26 was marked.)
12 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay, Mr. Walters. Take a look
13 at Exhibit No. 26. And on page 2, paragraph 3, where it
14 says -- where Ms. Devi says:
15 "There has unequivocally, and without exception,
16 never, never been any inappropriate behavior toward me
17 on his part. Being considered an" internal quote
18 "'attractive'" close quote "woman by friends,
19 especially men, I am very much aware when even subtle
20 advances are being made toward me, either verbally or
21 physically. I have never, on any level nor in any way,
22 received sexual advances from Kriyananda, either by
23 innuendo, suggestion, hints, body language or physical
24 actions," close quote.
25 Is that true?
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1 ++ MR. PARSONS: Objection. I'm instructing this
2 witness not to testify concerning any private relationship
3 between himself and this woman, including but not limited to
4 anything that she said in her declaration.
5 MR. GREENE: Okay. Please note that.
6 And please mark this as Exhibit 27.
7 (Exhibit 27 was marked.)
8 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay, Mr. Walters. Would you
9 take a look at Exhibit 27?
10 Mr. Parsons, here's a copy, if you'd care.
11 MR. PARSONS: Okay, thank you.
12 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, you're familiar with this
13 document, aren't you?
14 A. Moderately.
15 MR. PARSONS: Objection -- okay.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. Moderately; correct?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. You have to say "yes" --
19 A. Moderately.
20 Q. And this is a document that is disseminated from
21 time to time within the Ananda community, is it not?
22 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Lack of foundation for
23 this witness, "disseminated" is vague, "within Ananda
24 community."
25 You may respond to the extent you can.
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I don't know. It's available.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. It's available; right?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. And what this document is, is an interview between
5 LD and you; right?
6 A. Probably, it's a question --
7 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, would you let the
8 witness look at the document, please? I gave you your own
9 copy.
10 MR. PARSONS: I'm holding it here so he can see
11 it.
12 MR. GREENE: Let him hold it. I think he can do
13 it himself, Mr. Parsons.
14 THE WITNESS: My recollection is that it was a
15 group of people, and this was one of the questions I was
16 asked. I think, but I don't know.
17 MR. GREENE: Okay, Mr. Parsons, let's me make
18 it easy for you and give you another copy, so the witness
19 can hold on to his own copy.
20 MR. PARSONS: Please, go ahead.
21 MR. GREENE: Do you want to coach the witness,
22 Mr. Parsons?
23 MR. PARSONS: The record is clear. I'm not saying
24 anything.
25 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. So your understanding
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1 of Exhibit 27, Mr. Walters, is, is that it was a group
2 meeting; correct?
3 A. No. You misstated my statement. I said I
4 remembered -- I think that it's -- I think it was a group
5 meeting, but I'm not sure.
6 Q. Okay. And but what your best recollection is, is
7 that the group meeting involved people asking questions of
8 you. Right?
9 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Misstatements it, lack
10 of foundation.
11 Go ahead and respond.
12 THE WITNESS: I think it would have to be that,
13 because it was recorded.
14 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And Exhibit 27, to the
15 best of your knowledge, is a transcription of the
16 recording. Right?
17 MR. PARSONS: Objection.
18 MR. GREENE: Q. Correct?
19 MR. PARSONS: Lack of foundation, misstates his
20 testimony. Go ahead.
21 THE WITNESS: I think so.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. And to the best of your
23 knowledge, the recording to which you're making reference
24 was an audio, a tape recording. Correct?
25 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Lack of foundation,
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1 misstates his testimony.
2 Go ahead.
3 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Was it a video recording?
5 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Lack of foundation.
6 Go ahead.
7 THE WITNESS: I very much doubt it.
8 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not
9 the tape is still in existence of the -- that provided the
10 transcript that's Exhibit 27?
11 A. I have no idea.
12 Q. Okay. Do you know -- withdraw that.
13 Is there a central repository in the Ananda
14 community where tape recordings of talks that you have given
15 to members are kept?
16 MR. PARSONS: Objection.
17 MR. GREENE: Q. To your knowledge?
18 MR. PARSONS: Go ahead.
19 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So there is no library
21 then, to your knowledge, in the Ananda community of tapes of
22 talks by Kriyananda. Correct?
23 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Misstates his prior
24 testimony; vague as to "library."
25 Go ahead.
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762
1 THE WITNESS: No. There are probably several.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. There's probably several
3 libraries?
4 A. Probably.
5 Q. Okay. And when you say that there are probably
6 several libraries, what you mean is that said libraries are
7 maintained by individual members. Correct?
8 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Misstates his testimony,
9 assumes facts, and no foundation.
10 THE WITNESS: They are not -- they're not
11 maintained by individuals as individuals. They're
12 maintained -- you might use the word "functionaries," people
13 who are working in that particular department, would be in
14 charge while they're in that department.
15 But it's not like a -- not like a library owned by
16 any individual.
17 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So then if I understand
18 you correctly, the way that you're using the word "library"
19 is that one or more members of the community assume the
20 function of keeping tapes of your talks so that other
21 members, when they want to, can have access to them. Is
22 that what you mean?
23 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. That calls for
24 speculation on this witness's part. No knowledge or
25 foundation of motivation of third parties.
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1 You may, however, respond to your understanding.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. I think that's the case.
3 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And then what are the
4 identities of those people, to your knowledge?
5 A. That's where I'm not quite sure.
6 Q. All right. Well, give me your best answer, please.
7 MR. PARSONS: Objection. No foundation for this
8 witness to testify.
9 You can go ahead, though, to the extent you know.
10 THE WITNESS: We have archives that are just
11 there. Nobody looks at them. We don't have the time for
12 that.
13 There are others, probably in the ministry office.
14 But who, I don't know.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Now, the archives to which
16 you make reference are different from the reference you made
17 to the ministry office. Right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Aside from the archives, and aside from the
20 ministry office, to your knowledge, is there any other place
21 where tapes of talks given by you to members of Ananda are
22 kept?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Okay. Now, the question by LD is, quote:
25 "How should we relate to you, Swami? You're
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1 certainly a friend, but to many of us, you are so much
2 more than that. I'd like to know how I, and all of us,
3 can develop an open channel with you that we'd feel
4 comfortable with. And I'd like to know how to work
5 with that on all levels, not just on the level of
6 personality," close quote.
7 Now, to the best of your recollection, did
8 Ms. Devi ask this question of you during the summer of 1983?
9 A. I have no idea.
10 Q. Okay. To the best of your knowledge, is Exhibit
11 27 a document that is distributed to members of Ananda while
12 they are in monastic training?
13 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Already asked and
14 answered to a certain extent.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I --
16 MR. PARSONS: It contradicts his testimony from
17 before, but go ahead.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I don't have an answer. It's
19 available. That's all I know.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Is there currently an
21 individual or individuals who, according to your knowledge,
22 are in charge of the monastic training that goes on in the
23 Ananda community?
24 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague, compound, no
25 foundation.
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1 Go ahead.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was recently given to
3 Haridas and Eileen.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. And when you say recently, when?
5 A. About a month ago.
6 Q. And prior to that, who was in charge of the
7 monastic training?
8 A. Anandi and Bharat, B-h-a-r-a-t.
9 Q. And that's Anandi Cornell?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And does Bharat have a surname?
12 A. Cornell.
13 Q. Okay. So husband and wife?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And for how long were those two individuals in
16 that position?
17 A. I don't know how long. Several years. I'd say
18 probably at least 7 years.
19 Q. At least 7 years?
20 A. Probably.
21 Q. Okay. And did you initially assigned that role of
22 being in charge of the monastic training in the Ananda
23 community to the Cornells?
24 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Vague as to "initially."
25 You may respond.
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1 THE WITNESS: I don't remember doing so, but that
2 doesn't mean that I didn't have a say. I just don't know.
3 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: Do
4 you know how -- withdraw that.
5 Did anyone else in addition to you have a say as
6 to the appointment of the Cornells to be in charge of the
7 monastic training program in the Ananda community, to your
8 knowledge?
9 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. It misstates his
10 testimony. Vague as to their involvement.
11 You may respond to that question, if you can.
12 THE WITNESS: For many years, I have not directly
13 run that sort of thing. So it would be more through our
14 ministry office, or -- but anyway, it's not just I.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And what my question is,
16 is who else in addition to you, with respect to those two
17 individuals and their role as being in charge of the
18 monastic training program?
19 A. That would at this point be speculation. I don't
20 know.
21 Q. All right. To your knowledge, are there any
22 records in that regard?
23 A. Probably not, but there might be.
24 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, was there any meeting
25 where there was discussion as to whom would be assigned that
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1 position before that position was assigned to the Cornells?
2 A. Again, I don't know.
3 (Judge Pliska entered the deposition room.)
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Who is in the church ministry
5 office?
6 MR. PARSONS: Objection. What time?
7 MR. GREENE: Q. Currently.
8 A. You mean right now?
9 Q. Right now.
10 A. Well -- good morning, Judge.
11 JUDGE PLISKA: Good morning.
12 THE WITNESS: That would be John and Devi Novak,
13 Ram and Dianna Smith, Seva Wiberg, Peter McDowell. I can't
14 recall all the names. There must be eight or more people
15 working there.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. And are the people
17 who are in the church ministry office those who are
18 responsible for the day-to-day running of the Ananda
19 community?
20 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Lack of foundation for
21 this witness to testify.
22 Go ahead.
23 THE WITNESS: We have two types of running. One
24 is from a spiritual point of view, what is for people's
25 spiritual welfare, where people are needed and so on.
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1 There's also the general manager, which includes
2 the running of the more practical day-to-day things.
3 And the two work very harmoniously and closely
4 together, so there's no clearcut division.
5 But essentially, the way Ananda is set up is that
6 the general manager runs the day-to-day functions of the
7 community. The spiritual director and/or his associates, in
8 the spiritual directorate, don't get so involved directly in
9 order not to allow exigencies of the moment to influence
10 their decision, so that decisions can be more clearly made
11 with regard to the welfare of the members and the spiritual
12 rightness or wrongness of a matter.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So then if I understand
14 you correctly, what you're telling me is that the Ananda
15 community is run, as a general matter, out of the ministry
16 office, and there are two emphasises in the way that the
17 community is run. Is that a fair understanding?
18 A. That's not quite right.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. The general manager is not in the ministry office.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. The ministry comes under the spiritual
23 directorate.
24 Q. All right. So the ministry office comes directly
25 under you. Right?
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769
1 MR. PARSONS: No, that misstates it.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. I'm asking --
3 A. It does misstate it. It isn't the case. I don't
4 really work with the ministry office. I work with the
5 people who work with the ministry office.
6 Q. Okay. So then the liaisons, as it were, between
7 you and the ministry office are John and Devi Novak. Right?
8 MR. PARSONS: Well, again, that misstates his
9 testimony. I object on that ground.
10 You may respond.
11 THE WITNESS: In the ministry office, this is
12 correct.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So just so that it's
14 clear, you as spiritual director do not directly interface
15 with the ministry office. Right? I mean -- actually,
16 that's probably -- let me withdraw that and try to ask you a
17 more precise question.
18 You as spiritual director do not necessarily
19 interface with the ministry office. Right?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Okay. Although you have the choice to do so any
22 time you want. Right?
23 A. Right. We're a small community.
24 Q. And the -- when you do not exercise that choice to
25 interface directly with the ministry office, John and Devi
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1 Novak liaison in between you and the ministry office. Right?
2 MR. PARSONS: Objection as to time. Misstates the
3 testimony.
4 You may respond.
5 THE WITNESS: "Liaison" suggests active
6 cooperation. Very often, it's not lack of cooperation, but
7 very often they just do things according to the way things
8 come up. I.
9 Don't get consulted on very many things. In fact,
10 very few.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Nonetheless, as a general
12 proposition, in terms of the way that the Ananda community
13 is structured, John and Devi Novak, they liaison in between
14 you and the ministry office. Right?
15 MR. PARSONS: I object. That just misstates what
16 he just said.
17 So you may respond to that question.
18 THE WITNESS: I think that's correct.
19 MR. PARSONS: Generally -- I'm sorry.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, for how long have John and
21 Devi Novak operated in that liaison-like capacity?
22 A. We're so informally structured that it would be
23 very difficult to talk about liaison in that particular
24 way.
25 The ministry office, for example, is a pretty new
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1 office. John Novak has been my right-hand man at Ananda
2 from the very beginning, and Vidura Smallen has been the
3 general manager for many years. How many, I would not be
4 able to say.
5 We have worked together. I have also worked
6 together with many other people in different respects.
7 As I said, it's an informal and small community,
8 so we don't have rigid lines.
9 Q. Okay. So you have -- it's a pretty flexible kind
10 of setup. Right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. When was the ministry office
13 established, to the best of your knowledge?
14 A. I think you could call it a gradually evolving
15 thing that's been there a few years or many years, depending
16 on how you look at it. It's -- there's no clearcut thing
17 where we say, now this is it.
18 Q. Well, when you told me a few minutes ago that the
19 ministry office was a, quote, "pretty new office," close
20 quote, what did you mean?
21 A. A building.
22 Q. All right. So you are making reference to the
23 ministry office more as a role, or a means of how the Ananda
24 community is managed, rather than a particular spot. Is
25 that fair to say?
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1 MR. PARSONS: Well, wait. That's a compound
2 question. I want to object on that ground.
3 You may answer.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm not quite sure. I'm
5 trying to figure it out myself right now as you ask me.
6 We've had a -- well, we haven't called it ministry
7 office, until we actually got a building, but it was
8 functioning as one. Very loosely.
9 Again, I have to remind you, this is not GM. And
10 the way we do things is not that clearly -- we don't have to
11 define it, because it functions well. You talk to somebody,
12 and then things happen.
13 So in a way, we've had a ministry office from the
14 beginning. In another way, it's been gradually evolving.
15 In a further way, and the way I was trying to
16 refer to it a few moments ago when I said it's a new thing,
17 is that we have an actual building there with a number of
18 workers, files, desks and so on as a more formal structure
19 to oversee the ministry of our churches, our colonies, our
20 outreach, all of those things.
21 That's relatively new. How new, I don't even know
22 that.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. Now, when was the
24 ministry office placed within the building to which you're
25 making reference?
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773
1 A. Yes. That's what I say. I don't know. It could
2 have been --
3 Q. And can you give me an estimate?
4 A. I -- accepting that I'm not sure, I would say less
5 than 7 years.
6 Q. Okay. Would you say less than 5?
7 A. This -- I won't say more than that.
8 Q. Okay. Now, when you say that there was a ministry
9 office from the beginning, what do you mean?
10 A. I mean that there were people who were working on
11 trying to -- after all, our teaching is essentially a
12 spiritual sharing with people. So anybody who would
13 function in that respect would be a part of whatever you'd
14 want to call a ministry office.
15 For example, back in '69, 1969, I wrote a series
16 of lessons. People who would send those lessons out would
17 be a part of some sort of ministry office. People who would
18 answer questions would be part of that.
19 And whereas at the very beginning I did all the
20 teaching myself, it wasn't very long before I began to get
21 other people teaching also. They would also be a part of a
22 function that we could loosely label "ministry office."
23 When we speak of "ministry office" today, we think
24 more as an administrative center for ministerial
25 activities. And so, you see, it's a loose definition.
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774
1 Q. All right.
2 A. There was no need to have an administrative
3 function that was clearly defined until we got more members.
4 Q. Now, when you make reference to the series of
5 lessons that you authored in 1969, are those the 14 Steps?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. What are you talking about?
8 A. It was the predecessor to the 14 Steps.
9 Q. When you say it was the predecessor to the 14
10 Steps, do you include in what you mean that the 14 Steps
11 were derived from that?
12 A. No. They were amplified on that.
13 Q. Okay. So what was disseminated in 1969 ultimately
14 evolved into and became the 14 Steps?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. All right. And the 14 Steps are writings by you
17 that are disseminated to individuals who are in the process
18 of progressing on the path that's offered by the Ananda
19 community. Right?
20 MR. PARSONS: Vague as to definitions of certain
21 words in there. Confusing. Also vague as to time. Also,
22 "on the path."
23 But I'll let the witness respond to the question.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I need it to be restated. I
25 didn't get it clearly.
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1 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. I'll withdraw it for
2 now.
3 Is it fair to say that the -- what the ministry
4 office has in common from the beginning, or from its
5 inception, to what it is today, is the dissemination of --
6 or it includes the dissemination of materials authored by
7 you?
8 MR. PARSONS: Vague as to, first of all, starting
9 off, "Is it fair to say." And then, I find the question
10 very confusing. Also, "dissemination of materials," that's
11 vague.
12 You may respond to the question.
13 THE WITNESS: Well, he used the word "includes,"
14 and yes, of course it includes.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And it includes providing
16 -- the ministry office includes the providing of spiritual
17 guidance to devotees. Correct?
18 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague as to the term
19 "devotees," and who they are. Foundation. Go ahead.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, try it again.
21 MR. PARSONS: Would you like it reread?
22 MR. GREENE: Excuse me, Mr. Parsons. I'll ask the
23 question again.
24 Q. And let me ask preliminarily, you're familiar with
25 the term "devotee"?
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1 A. Devotee, we call did it.
2 Q. Here we go. It's my pronunciation.
3 A. Maybe you're right. I don't know.
4 Q. How do you say it?
5 A. Devotee.
6 Q. Devotee. Okay.
7 One of the functions of the ministry office, from
8 the beginning to the present day, has included providing
9 guidance to devotees. Correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. PARSONS: Still object. Whose devotees?
12 THE WITNESS: Well, included. Devotees in
13 general means people seeking God, is my understanding of the
14 term.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. In your understanding of the
16 term "devotee," you would include all live-in members at the
17 Ananda community, wouldn't you?
18 A. I would include anybody who's seeking God.
19 Q. I know, but that's not my question.
20 A. Say it again.
21 Q. My question is, in your use of that term, you
22 would include all live-in members in the Ananda community.
23 Right?
24 MR. PARSONS: Okay. In that case, I object, in
25 that this witness lacks foundation to opine as to the status
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1 of all live-in members.
2 You may respond.
3 THE WITNESS: Indeed. I would hope that they're
4 devotees, but I don't know if they are. That's up to them
5 and God.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. I understand. But that would be
7 your understanding. Correct?
8 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. It misstates what
9 he just said. Go ahead.
10 THE WITNESS: I -- those people who are on our
11 path are devotees. I would say, yes, of course, they should
12 be at least.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Now, when you make
14 reference to someone being, quote, "on our path," close
15 quote, what do you mean by the use of that phrase?
16 A. I mean somebody who is following the teachings and
17 practices that we teach.
18 Q. Okay. Now, are you familiar with a woman named
19 Victoria Kelly?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Does Victoria Kelly work in the ministry
22 office currently?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Has she ever worked in the ministry office, to
25 your knowledge?
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1 A. I'm tempted to say no, but the fact is yes.
2 Q. Okay. And what's your best recollection --
3 A. By tempted, I mean the word "work" comes in.
4 Never mind, that's a light --
5 Q. Is this a joke?
6 A. That's a joke.
7 MR. PARSONS: Just so I'm clear then, what is the
8 answer?
9 MR. GREENE: Excuse me, Mr. Parsons.
10 Q. Mr. Walters, in my use of the term "work" in
11 reference to whether or not Victoria Kelly worked in the
12 ministry office, is there something ambivalent about my use
13 of the term "work"?
14 A. I really was speaking lightly. Sitting in a chair
15 moving a pen every now and then is not necessarily work.
16 Q. Oh, okay. Pushing papers and pencils, rather than
17 out there like doing some good physical labor.
18 A. But she was there.
19 Q. She was there in the ministry office.
20 What would she do, to your knowledge?
21 A. The best of my knowledge is that she did design,
22 art design.
23 Q. Okay. For example, some of the covers of your
24 written publications?
25 A. I don't know whether she did that. She may have
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1 designed illustrations inside. But that kind of work,
2 anyway.
3 Q. Okay. And so to your knowledge, then, Victoria
4 Kelly at some point did provide artwork that was published
5 as illustrations or something like that with your writings;
6 correct?
7 MR. PARSONS: Vague as to "that."
8 THE WITNESS: With my writings? Is that what you
9 said?
10 MR. GREENE: Q. Yes.
11 A. It would only be in connection with things that
12 the ministry office published, which I wouldn't have
13 anything to do about. So I don't really know. Not my
14 books, in other words, no.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. Not your books. Okay.
16 What about -- are you familiar with a woman named
17 Catherine Van Houten?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And Catherine Van Houten, does she currently work
20 in the ministry office, to your knowledge?
21 A. She works in the building, but I think she's not
22 classified as in the ministry office. She's in fund-raising.
23 Q. Okay. Now, when you talk about her, Catherine Van
24 Houten, not being classified in the ministry office, to your
25 knowledge, are there any written materials which provide
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1 classification or structure of roles that are employed in
2 the management and administration of the Ananda community?
3 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Compound, vague.
4 Go ahead.
5 THE WITNESS: I'm becoming a little vague myself
6 with these questions. Try it again.
7 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. To your knowledge, are
8 there any written materials which set forth classifications
9 of roles or functions that are used for the administration
10 and management of the Ananda community?
11 A. I have no idea.
12 Q. Do you know the identity of -- withdraw that.
13 Is there any individual that you believe is most
14 likely to know whether or not there is any or are any
15 written materials which designate roles that are used in the
16 administration and management of the Ananda community?
17 A. To my mind, at least, that's an extremely
18 complicated question. I'll give you a name that I think
19 might be as adequate as any other, if that --
20 MR. PARSONS: Respond to the question.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. Who is that?
22 A. I think it's a response to the question.
23 Q. Who is that?
24 A. Cathy Parojinog.
25 Q. That's Cathy P. of the legal team?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, Catherine Van Houten, to your knowledge, is
3 in charge of financial donations, is she not, currently?
4 A. Asking for them, at least.
5 Q. And for how long has she operated in that role, to
6 your knowledge?
7 A. Several years. I don't know how many.
8 Q. Okay. Well, what is your best estimate in that
9 regard?
10 A. 7 maybe.
11 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Walters.
12 I've noticed that in the course of your responses
13 to my questions regarding administrative roles of
14 individuals in the Ananda community, that the number 7
15 keeping coming up.
16 Now, is there any particular rotation that is
17 based on the number 7?
18 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague.
19 Go ahead.
20 THE WITNESS: Well, I just had the same question
21 myself before you asked it. I noticed I had said 7 before,
22 and I -- it may be just habit. There's no reason to say 7.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay, all right.
24 Now, to your knowledge, does Victoria Kelly assist
25 Catherine Van Houten in the administration regarding
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1 financial donations?
2 MR. PARSONS: Currently?
3 MR. GREENE: Q. Yes, that's the first question.
4 A. No, she does not.
5 Q. Has she ever, to your knowledge?
6 A. I believe so, but I'm not sure.
7 Q. Okay. What -- withdraw that.
8 A. If you'll excuse me, I'll be back shortly.
9 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: I need to end the videotape
10 in the next 10 minutes. This might be a good time to do
11 that.
12 This is the end of videotape number 12 in the
13 deposition of Donald Walters. We're going off the record at
14 11:52 a.m.
15 (Recess from 11:52 a.m. to 11:58 a.m.)
16 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: This is the beginning of
17 videotape number 13 in the deposition of Donald Walters.
18 We're back on the record at 11:58 a.m.
19 MR. GREENE: Q. Mr. Walters, in addition to
20 Victoria -- what's her name -- Kelly, and Catherine Van
21 Houten working in the financial office of the Ananda
22 community over the course of the last 7 years, what other
23 individuals are you aware of who worked in that area?
24 A. There may have been more, but I only know of Derek
25 Van Atta.
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1 Q. What was the last name?
2 A. Derek, D-e-r-e-k --
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Van Atta, A-t-t-a.
5 Q. Okay. How about Tom Oesterle?
6 MR. PARSONS: Does he --
7 MR. GREENE: Incomplete question.
8 Q. To your knowledge, has Tom Oesterle worked in the
9 financial area of the Ananda community?
10 A. That's a separate department. This is not
11 fund-raising.
12 Q. Okay. Then tell me what department Mr. Oesterle
13 functions in, please.
14 MR. PARSONS: Currently? I'll just object, vague
15 as to time.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. He's not working currently.
17 MR. GREENE: Q. I know. He's in Europe
18 currently. Right?
19 A. Yes. Not only that, but even when he's here, he
20 doesn't.
21 Q. Well, when you made reference to Tom Oesterle
22 working in a different department, what department were you
23 talking about?
24 A. The financial.
25 Q. And so generally speaking, is there a financial
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1 department in the Ananda community?
2 A. There may be more than one.
3 Q. Okay. And what do you mean when you say maybe
4 there are more than one?
5 A. I mean I'm vague. I don't really know. They call
6 it financial services. They may have broken it up. I
7 really don't know.
8 Q. Okay. So to your knowledge, then, there is a
9 division of the management structure of the Ananda community
10 that's called "financial services." Right?
11 MR. PARSONS: Objection. That misstates his
12 testimony.
13 Go ahead and respond.
14 THE WITNESS: I think that's the case.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, is
16 financial services over, or does it incorporate, donations?
17 That's a really terrible -- let me withdraw and
18 try to ask you -- make it more clear.
19 What I'm trying to find out is whether or not
20 there is kind of like an at-large division of Ananda
21 management that's dedicated to finances, under which or
22 subordinate to which is financial services.
23 And so could you -- would you tell me whether or
24 not there is such an overall or umbrella part of the Ananda
25 management structure?
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1 MR. PARSONS: I object. There's a couple
2 possibilities in there, so it's compound, it's vague,
3 ambiguous; vague as to time, as well.
4 I'll let the witness testify -- and also, no
5 foundation for this witness.
6 But go ahead and --
7 THE WITNESS: I'm the worst person to ask these
8 things. I just don't know exactly how it functions.
9 It's all, generally speaking, under the general
10 manager.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So -- and under the
12 general manager -- which is Vidura Smallen; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And he's sitting down to your right at the other
15 end of the table?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And he's acted in that capacity for approximately
18 7 years; right?
19 A. More.
20 Q. More, okay. And then under the charge of
21 Mr. Smallen, to your knowledge, are the -- or rather, are
22 components of the Ananda community that have to do with
23 material day-to-day concerns.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And included within material day-to-day
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786
1 concerns is included -- or is a division that has to do with
2 finances, according to your knowledge. Right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, according to your knowledge, what are the
5 areas of finances which have to be addressed within the
6 structure of the Ananda community?
7 MR. PARSONS: Vague and confusing. Go ahead and
8 respond, if you can.
9 THE WITNESS: As I said, I'm about the worst
10 person to ask about this.
11 MR. PARSONS: I'd also object, no foundation,
12 then. Go ahead.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. I'm asking what you know.
14 A. I would have to suppose. Income and expenses.
15 MR. PARSONS: He's entitled to your good faith
16 best estimate or your memory. But if it calls for
17 speculation or guessing, then you should say that.
18 THE WITNESS: Well, it seems obvious, so I
19 couldn't be guessing. Income, expenses, disbursement, all
20 of that.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. Does that include Crystal Clarity
22 Publishing?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Does that include the 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status
25 of the Ananda Church?
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1 A. This I don't know.
2 MR. PARSONS: Objection --
3 MR. GREENE: Q. Is the person who knows the most
4 about -- to your knowledge, who knows the most about Ananda
5 Church's 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status Tom Oesterle?
6 A. I would say probably Vidura Smallen knows more
7 than Tom Oesterle on that particular question. But Tom
8 Oesterle may be totally current. I don't know.
9 Q. Now, also included within the scope of the
10 general material management of the Ananda community is
11 housing for Ananda members, right, according to your
12 knowledge?
13 A. Included under what?
14 Q. The general -- the scope of the general manager of --
15 A. The financial -- I have to assume so, but I can't
16 be absolutely sure. It would indirectly, at least, be under
17 his supervision.
18 Q. Now, do you pay rent?
19 A. No, I don't pay rent.
20 Q. Okay. Since the inception of the Ananda community
21 in 1968, have you ever paid rent?
22 A. I've donated about a million dollars to Ananda,
23 and I think that's just sort of understood that that's
24 included.
25 Q. Okay. And the million dollars that you have
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788
1 donated, have -- did those funds come from the bank account
2 which contains the proceeds of your royalties?
3 MR. PARSONS: Objection. He's already testified
4 contrary to that.
5 THE WITNESS: Does it include that? Yes, of
6 course it includes it.
7 MR. GREENE: Q. So if I understand you correctly,
8 what you're saying is that the million dollars that you have
9 donated to the Ananda community came from your royalties.
10 Correct?
11 A. No.
12 MR. PARSONS: No.
13 THE WITNESS: That's not correct.
14 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Then I didn't understand
15 you.
16 A. It's a part of that.
17 Q. What do you mean?
18 A. Meaning the royalties are a part of the money that
19 I've given to Ananda.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. I have not had a million dollars in royalties, to
22 my knowledge. Maybe I have. I don't know.
23 Q. Does -- withdraw that.
24 So then to your knowledge, are there any other
25 individuals that you consider to be knowledgeable about the
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1 Ananda community's finances in addition to Mr. Smallen and
2 Mr. Oesterle?
3 A. I would say the whole financial office, services,
4 would know.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. I would say John Novak probably knows quite a bit.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. I know some.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. We have a number of people who form sort of a
11 committee, and they would know.
12 Q. All right. And what is this committee to which
13 you just made reference?
14 A. It's fairly informal, but one is Steve -- rats,
15 what's his name? I know perfectly well. My brain's getting
16 a little tired.
17 Q. Steve Weber?
18 A. Yes, that's correct. Bob Rinzler, who runs the
19 Dawn Publications; Derek; Vidura; and possibly every now and
20 then a few other people, but not necessarily.
21 Q. Is Dawn Publications -- that's D-a-w-n?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that a separate, to your knowledge, publishing
24 entity from Crystal Clarity?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And to your knowledge, is Dawn Publications in any
2 way independent of the Ananda community?
3 MR. PARSONS: I want to object here. When you use
4 the term "to your knowledge," are you asking for a
5 certainty, or are you saying, to the best of your knowledge?
6 MR. GREENE: Of course. I'm asking what he
7 knows. I'm not asking -- he told me earlier he's not
8 fallible any more than I am. I'm asking when he knows.
9 MR. PARSONS: When you say the phrase "to your
10 knowledge," you mean "to the best of your knowledge."
11 Correct?
12 MR. GREENE: Q. Do you have any knowledge,
13 Mr. Walters, whether Dawn Publications is independent in any
14 way of the Ananda community?
15 A. I have to admit that I'm not sure.
16 Q. Okay. Now, to your knowledge, is Crystal Clarity
17 Publishing in any way independent of the Ananda community?
18 A. It is not.
19 Q. Okay. So then --
20 A. Except it's under the Church, not under the
21 Village.
22 Q. Now, when you say that it's under the Church and
23 not the Village, would you tell me what the basis is for you
24 drawing the distinction you just did between the two?
25 A. There are village functions that may be profit. I
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1 don't know. The church functions are strictly nonprofit.
2 We also have some businesses -- and as I say, I'm
3 not sure about Dawn -- that are privately owned. And then
4 they would be neither under the village nor under the
5 church, but owned and operated by Ananda members, for
6 profit, and hiring mostly, but not necessarily, Ananda
7 members.
8 Q. Are there any such independent, private entities
9 which operate on the property?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What are they?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Okay. Who are the individuals that operate such
14 entities?
15 A. Well, as I say, if I were to enumerate them, I
16 would be totally lost.
17 I can mention Ananda Power Technology, which I
18 think is privately owned, but I'm not certain. LD
19 has a flower essence business of her own. I don't know to
20 what extent it's really hers or whether she's given it to
21 Ananda.
22 I'm not the one to ask any of those questions,
23 because I don't know.
24 Q. Is Vidura Smallen the person to ask those
25 questions to, your knowledge?
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1 A. He would certainly be one.
2 Q. And John Devi would be one; correct?
3 A. Who? John Novak.
4 Q. Or John Novak, sorry.
5 A. He might know, but less directly.
6 Q. Okay. What other individuals would be more likely
7 to know about private businesses on the Ananda property
8 other than John Smallen, to your knowledge?
9 A. I think that's quite enough right there. He would
10 know.
11 Q. Now, I'm unclear with respect to the
12 differentiation you make between the Ananda Village and the
13 Church.
14 So to your knowledge, is the Ananda Village a
15 corporate entity?
16 MR. PARSONS: Lack of foundation. Objection.
17 Go ahead.
18 THE WITNESS: I think we'd better take a lunch
19 break. I'm afraid my brain is not quite functioning here
20 with all these questions. It's about lunchtime.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. If you could answer this question
22 for me before we go to lunch.
23 A. That's what I'm finding -- let's see. It was set
24 up.
25 MR. PARSONS: Don't guess. If you're able to
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1 formulate a response, he's entitled.
2 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, please, do not coach the
3 witness. Make an objection, but do not coach the witness.
4 MR. PARSONS: I'm not coaching.
5 MR. GREENE: The witness was in the middle of
6 giving a response, and you interrupted and hinted to him
7 about how to respond to the question. Please do not do
8 that.
9 THE WITNESS: No, he didn't hint. I didn't take
10 anything as a hint that he said.
11 Let me say, I think we have two corporations.
12 One is the Village and one is the Church.
13 MR. GREENE: Okay. Why don't we break for an hour
14 and come back at 1:15.
15 MR. PARSONS: It's usually taken us about an hour
16 5.
17 MR. GREENE: No, we've got limited time, we
18 started late. So why don't we start at 1:20. Okay?
19 MR. PARSONS: Okay, fine.
20 THE VIDEO OPERTOR: We're going off the record at
21 12:13 p.m.
22 (Lunch recess from 12:13 p.m. to 1:27 p.m.)
23 --o0o--
24 AFTERNOON SESSION
25 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: We're back on the record at
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1 1:27 p.m.
2 THE WITNESS: I should say also that I'm not
3 really feeling too well. It may be medication I took for
4 diarrhea, but I just want it to be on the record.
5 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Well, thank you for
6 sharing.
7 Mr. Walters, you're still under oath.
8 A. Of course.
9 Q. You know Sheila Rush sitting to your right.
10 Correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. She's one of your senior ministers. Right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And she has been with the Ananda organization
15 since the 1960s. Correct?
16 A. No. I would say probably 19 -- 1981 or -2.
17 MR. GREENE: Okay. Your Honor, at this point I
18 want to make a motion to exclude the -- Mr. Novak and
19 Ms. Praver. I am going to be going into areas some more
20 concerning which both of those individuals will be giving
21 testimony, and concerning which both individuals will be
22 examined.
23 They're not parties. There is no reason for them
24 be here.
25 Mr. Walters has his lawyer, has a corporate
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795
1 representative, and has his doctor. And if Mr. Smallen
2 comes back, this motion would be with respect to him as
3 well.
4 And there is no need for them to be here and
5 listen to what this witness testifies about when they are
6 going to be examined on the same circumstances and the same
7 issues.
8 So I make that motion at this time.
9 JUDGE PLISKA: Do you respond?
10 MR. PARSONS: Well, I'm not familiar with -- this
11 isn't like testimony at time of trial, where a witness can
12 be excluded pursuant to statutory authority. They're here
13 as representatives of a party. I mean, they're not just
14 here to kill time.
15 I don't think it would be appropriate to exclude
16 them from the deposition, because they are here in a
17 representative function, representing a party. And I
18 believe they've got in fact a right to attend, Your Honor.
19 JUDGE PLISKA: No, I don't think they have a
20 right. I think only parties have a right to attend.
21 MR. PARSONS: But the party here is a corporate
22 entity, and they're appearing on behalf of that corporate
23 entity.
24 JUDGE PLISKA: Only lawyers can appear in court on
25 behalf of a corporate entity.
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1 MR. GREENE: And that's Sheila Rush. If there is
2 any person here appearing on behalf of the Ananda Church of
3 Self-Realization, a nonprofit religious corporation, that's
4 Ms. Rush.
5 So these other individuals have no business being
6 here.
7 JUDGE PLISKA: If they're -- what is the
8 prejudice? I don't understand, because if you're going to
9 ask them -- you're going to ask Mr. Walters questions which
10 they will then be asked at a later deposition?
11 MR. GREENE: Concerning the same circumstances.
12 JUDGE PLISKA: They certainly will be able to read
13 Mr. Walters' deposition anyway.
14 MR. GREENE: No, they're not, because they're not
15 parties, and there's a protective order that exists. And
16 that protective order says that only parties may read the
17 deposition transcripts. So they are prohibited from doing
18 so.
19 JUDGE PLISKA: It's not like the normal case.
20 MR. GREENE: Right.
21 JUDGE PLISKA: Okay. Well then I have to order
22 nonparties excluded, then, from the deposition.
23 MR. GREENE: Asha, my tea. Do you have it there?
24 MR. NOVAK: Vidura is bringing it.
25 MR. GREENE: And that would be with respect to
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1 Vidura Smallen when he arrives.
2 JUDGE PLISKA: Well, let's see now. Who is --
3 Mr. Levin is a party.
4 MR. GREENE: Right. And he's not here.
5 MR. PARSONS: I don't think it's a major point,
6 Your Honor.
7 JUDGE PLISKA: Well, you're excluded, then, at
8 this point.
9 MR. PARSONS: What I would like, though, is
10 whenever the testimony that you expect involves them is
11 over, then I would like them to come back into the room.
12 MR. GREENE: No, I'm going to stand on this,
13 Mr. Parsons. You are the one that sought a protective
14 order. You are the one that has -- whose order --
15 JUDGE PLISKA: You don't even have to say
16 anymore. They have no right to be here, I'm sorry,
17 Mr. Parsons.
18 I know it's inconvenient for them, perhaps, but
19 they are going to have to leave.
20 MR. PARSONS: All right.
21 MR. GREENE: Thank you.
22 MR. PARSONS: By the way, Mr. Smallen will come
23 back into the room for a moment to actually bring us drinks,
24 so at that point we'll --
25 JUDGE PLISKA: Sure.
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1 (Mr. Novak and Ms. Praver left the deposition
2 room.)
3 MR. GREENE: That's fine. And I'd also add, just
4 for the record, that in deference to Mr. Walters, I don't
5 object to the presence of his doctor, Dr. Van Houten.
6 Q. Mr. Walters, when was the last time you saw with
7 your eyeballs Tom Oesterle?
8 A. Several weeks ago.
9 Q. Where were you?
10 A. That was at a concert at Crystal Hermitage, where
11 I live.
12 Q. All right. And was that a concert where you
13 performed?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And was that in August of this year?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, have you communicated with Mr. Oesterle since
18 that date, by any form?
19 MR. PARSONS: Objection, "communicated." Go
20 ahead.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. They've written me a card from
22 Italy -- from England. That's all.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. And that's Mr. Oesterle and his
24 wife?
25 A. Yes.
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799
1 Q. And the -- what they wrote you, is this a
2 postcard, or was it a letter?
3 A. I think it was a card, but not a postcard. I'm
4 not sure, but I think so.
5 Q. Where is it, if you know, Mr. Walters, that
6 Mr. Oesterle is staying in England?
7 A. He wrote to me that he was moving around.
8 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge of where
9 Mr. Oesterle is in England?
10 A. I do not.
11 Q. Do you anticipate that Mr. Oesterle is going to
12 return to the Ananda Village?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When do you anticipate his return will occur?
15 A. I think by the end of the month.
16 Q. By the end of this month?
17 A. I think so.
18 Q. So then to your knowledge, he, Mr. Oesterle, has
19 not left the Ananda community in the sense of giving up his
20 participation in it?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Do you know whether any other members of
23 the community have been in any form of contact with
24 Mr. Oesterle?
25 A. I do not.
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1 Q. Who is the present treasurer of the Ananda Church?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Now, before we broke for lunch, you told me that
4 there to your knowledge were two corporations up there in
5 Nevada City that are affiliated with Ananda.
6 One I believe is called the Ananda Church of
7 Self-Realization. Is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Okay. And what is the name, to the best of your
10 knowledge, of the other?
11 A. I don't actually know.
12 Q. Okay. Well, what is the name to the best of your
13 knowledge?
14 A. I can't say specifically, so I shouldn't say.
15 Q. Well, I'm asking you what you can tell me, whether
16 it's specific or not.
17 A. It's probably, possibly, Ananda Village, Inc.
18 Q. Okay. Were you involved in the origination of
19 Ananda Village, Inc.?
20 MR. PARSONS: Object. Vague as to "origination."
21 You may testify.
22 THE WITNESS: Well, I am the founder.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. When was Ananda Village, Inc.
24 incorporated, to the best of your knowledge?
25 MR. PARSONS: And again, we're taking that as a
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1 working name at the moment?
2 MR. GREENE: I'm taking that as the best name that
3 the witness can give me.
4 THE WITNESS: Maybe 1970, but I'm not sure.
5 MR. GREENE: Q. So is it correct, then, that the
6 Ananda Village, Inc. was incorporated after, I believe -- is
7 it Yoga Fellowship, Inc.?
8 A. The Yoga Fellowship.
9 Q. The Yoga Fellowship, Inc.?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. So The Yoga Fellowship, Inc. came first?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And Ananda Village, Inc. came second?
14 A. I believe this is the case.
15 Q. Now, to your knowledge, is Ananda Village,
16 Incorporated a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization?
17 A. I do not know.
18 Q. Do you know who the individuals are on Ananda
19 Village, Inc.'s board of directors?
20 A. I do not.
21 Q. Do you have any information about who the members
22 of the board of directors might be --
23 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection --
24 MR. GREENE: Q. -- of Ananda Village, Inc.?
25 MR. PARSONS: Well, I object. "Might be"
801
802
1 apparently calls for rank speculation.
2 If the witness does have any knowledge or opinion
3 upon which he can formulate a response, he certainly can
4 answer.
5 THE WITNESS: I can say that I must be an officer,
6 and John Novak and Vidura.
7 I don't know beyond that, and I don't even know
8 about that.
9 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Now, are you an officer or
10 director of the Ananda Church of Self-Realization?
11 A. I am.
12 Q. Okay. And which one are you, or are you both? An
13 officer or director?
14 A. I'm certainly an officer. Whether we have
15 directors or not, I don't actually know.
16 Q. Okay. And what is the title of the office which
17 you hold in the Ananda Church of Self-Realization?
18 A. That would be spiritual director and president.
19 Q. And with resect to Ananda Village, Inc., are you
20 the spiritual director and president of that corporation?
21 A. Since I don't even know whether I have a position
22 there, I can't clearly answer.
23 Q. Okay. Do you think you are?
24 MR. PARSONS: Wait. Also, compound.
25 THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know.
802
803
1 MR. GREENE: Q. But I want to know what your own
2 working assumption is in your own mind.
3 A. That I would be the same.
4 Q. Okay. Now, to your knowledge, is -- and I have to
5 back up, and I apologize. I'm going to repeat myself a
6 little bit, because I can't remember which question I got
7 the answer to. So if you'll bear with me.
8 Is -- I'll ask it this way: To your knowledge, is
9 Vidura Smallen a director of the Ananda Village,
10 Incorporated?
11 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. Asked and
12 answered, no foundation.
13 Go ahead.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. It's asked and answered.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. What's your answer?
16 A. My answer is that he -- I'm not sure that we have
17 a board of directors. He's certainly an officer.
18 Q. And is Vidura Smallen an officer of the Ananda
19 Church of Self-Realization?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And is John Novak an officer or director of Ananda
22 Village, Inc.?
23 A. Yes. He would be. That's what I say, I have to
24 say he would be.
25 Q. Okay. And is John Novak an officer or director of
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804
1 Ananda Village -- I mean, Ananda Church of Self-Realization?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you know with respect to the Ananda Church
4 of Self-Realization what the title of the office is which is
5 held by John Novak?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Okay. And the same question with respect to John
8 Novak's role in Ananda Village, Inc.
9 MR. PARSONS: I'm sorry, what's the question,
10 though?
11 MR. GREENE: Q. The question is, do you know what
12 the title of the office is held by John Novak in Ananda
13 Village, Inc.?
14 A. I don't.
15 Q. To your knowledge, does Devi Novak hold an office
16 or directorship in the Ananda Church of Self-Realization?
17 A. I can't say. I don't know.
18 Q. And same question with respect to Devi as to
19 Ananda Village, Inc.
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. You don't know?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Who, to your knowledge, currently is the person
24 most likely to be secretary of the Ananda Church of
25 Self-Realization?
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805
1 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Foundation, calls for
2 speculation. If you can --
3 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, in fact, it would be
4 speculation.
5 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, I'm asking you who, to your
6 knowledge, is the person most likely to be.
7 A. You're asking me to speculate. I don't know.
8 Q. So you, then, have no idea of what the identity
9 might be of the person who is currently secretary of the
10 Ananda Church of Self-Realization?
11 A. No, that's incorrect. Not to say I have no idea,
12 I just don't know.
13 Q. Okay. I'm asking you what the best state of your
14 knowledge is.
15 A. I have candidates in my mind. That's the same
16 thing as saying speculation.
17 Q. Great. Who are the candidates in your mind?
18 A. Well, let's see. Cathy Parojinog, Michael
19 Taylor. That's enough.
20 Q. Well, not whether that's enough. I want to know
21 whether you have any other candidates in addition to that.
22 A. I don't. But there may be others. That's why
23 even though I don't know specifics, I'm not vague on the
24 point.
25 Q. So as you sit here right now, you have no other
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806
1 candidates in your mind whom might be the secretary --
2 A. Who might be, yes, correct.
3 Q. -- of the Ananda Church of Self-Realization?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now are these same individuals whom you have
6 enumerated with respect to the Ananda Church of
7 Self-Realization also candidates, in your mind, for the
8 secretaryship, or the office of secretary, in the -- in
9 Ananda Village, Inc.?
10 MR. PARSONS: I object. It's fairly -- it's
11 compound. It's -- the witness has already testified he
12 didn't know. I mean, that's the bottom line. This witness
13 doesn't know.
14 So you're asking for speculation, and his
15 definition of "candidates."
16 But you know, I'll let him answer, if you have
17 something other than a guess.
18 THE WITNESS: It could be -- it's a guess.
19 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, would you please not
20 coach the witness?
21 MR. PARSONS: I'm going to instruct him not to
22 guess.
23 Your Honor, I'm instructing him not to answer that
24 question.
25 JUDGE PLISKA: You shouldn't guess at things
806
807
1 Mr. Walters. If you have some reasonable basis to give an
2 answer, that's appropriate.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Walters.
5 What is the basis for your testimony that Cathy
6 Parojinog is a person who might be the secretary of the
7 Ananda Church of Self-Realization?
8 A. She performs secretarial functions for Vidura
9 Smallen, and that would be the main reason.
10 Q. And the same question with respect to Michael
11 Taylor.
12 A. Michael Taylor --
13 MR. PARSONS: I do want to object. We're wasting
14 time on questions which can be directly answered with an
15 interrogatory directed to the appropriate defendant.
16 Rather than wallowing around, I'll permit you to
17 respond, though.
18 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, just make your
19 objection, please. And you're wasting my time.
20 MR. PARSONS: You may answer.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I don't know.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. You don't know -- let me -- the
23 question I asked you, in case Mr. Parsons' interruption
24 distracted you, was, would you please tell me what the basis
25 is, in your mind, for your testimony that Michael Taylor
807
808
1 might be the person who is the secretary of the Ananda
2 Church of Self-Realization?
3 A. Well, he has been in the past, and he still
4 performs secretarial functions of one kind or another for
5 the legal work and other related items.
6 So it's possible for that reason.
7 Q. Okay. Now, to your knowledge, does the Ananda
8 Church of Self-Realization have a legal department?
9 A. We have a legal department for these two
10 lawsuits. We have legal advisers, but it's not yet a
11 department.
12 Q. And Michael Taylor will operate in such department
13 from time to time. Correct?
14 A. I hope I can spare him from it.
15 Q. But that's correct, isn't it?
16 A. I don't know if he will.
17 Q. No. He has?
18 A. Has. I didn't hear you.
19 Q. Okay, I'm sorry.
20 A. Yes, he has.
21 Q. And the same with Cathy Parojinog. Right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And the same with Sheila Rush; right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Any other individuals who have acted in the
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809
1 last 5 years in such department?
2 A. Well, we have our --
3 MR. PARSONS: Wait. Objection. Lack of
4 foundation for this witness.
5 You may respond.
6 THE WITNESS: Well, we have our legal team that
7 includes me and the people you asked to leave the room, and
8 their husbands or wives, and Cathy Parojinog I have
9 mentioned.
10 That's about it, I think.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So then the legal team, in
12 addition to you and Cathy Parojinog and Sheila Rush,
13 includes Asha Praver; right?
14 A. Yes. And --
15 Q. Vidura Smallen; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And John Novak; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, do you know whether -- now, you have
20 enumerated this lawsuit and another lawsuit. That's the SRF
21 copyright dispute; correct?
22 MR. PARSONS: Well, object as to characterization
23 as a copyright dispute, but SRF lawsuit.
24 MR. GREENE: Q. SRF lawsuit. That's the other
25 lawsuit to which you were making reference?
809
810
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is there a third lawsuit to your knowledge that
3 now the Ananda Church of Self-Realization has been named a
4 defendant in?
5 A. Not to my knowledge.
6 Q. And you've heard no information whether or not
7 there is any third lawsuit. Is that correct?
8 MR. PARSONS: Objection. No communication between
9 attorney and client.
10 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, with respect to Ananda
12 Village, Incorporated, is the -- what's your understanding
13 of the purpose of that entity?
14 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's vague, ambiguous,
15 "purpose," foundation.
16 But you can respond to the extent you can
17 formulate a response.
18 THE WITNESS: It's a place where people of similar
19 ideals, who work together, serving those ideas, can help
20 each other spiritually.
21 It's a place where we can draw to a focus practice
22 of these teachings, which otherwise would be scattered
23 through offices, cities, whatever.
24 It's a means, therefore, of making these teachings
25 known to those who would benefit from them.
810
811
1 I think that probably states it as well as I can.
2 We have schools. It's a place where children can receive
3 education, it's a place where people can be taken care of by
4 their own. It's a very much more secure kind of life.
5 People who are without jobs, people who have become old,
6 they're taken care of, they don't have to depend upon the
7 government for it.
8 I think that probably, without going into a long
9 discussion, that encapsulates it.
10 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So when you described to
11 me that in part what the Ananda Village, Inc. does is
12 related to the practice of the teachings, the teachings to
13 which you are making reference are the teachings of
14 Yogananda as you have written about, at least in part. Is
15 that fair to say?
16 MR. PARSONS: Well, I object. It misstates his
17 earlier testimony, it's compound, it's ambiguous. It's
18 vague as to other teachings he's written about.
19 You can answer.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course, it's not. It's
21 Yogananda's teachings. Not just as I presented them, also
22 as I presented them.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. Right, okay.
24 Now, with respect to the Ananda Church of
25 Self-Realization, what is your understanding of the purpose
811
812
1 of that entity?
2 MR. PARSONS: Also, same objection, in terms of
3 lack of foundation, speculation.
4 THE WITNESS: And same answer. Because even
5 though people don't live there, they meet together as often
6 as they can within the church.
7 The church is also the holding body for the land
8 at Ananda. It is owned by the church. And so it directs
9 the -- I should say, it controls the direction of Ananda
10 Village to ensure that it be primarily a spiritual entity,
11 and not a social entity.
12 That states it pretty well, I think.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. Mr. Parsons is going to love
14 this one.
15 MR. PARSONS: Well, let's hear it.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. I'm just trying to formulate it.
17 Let me tell you what's in my mind, then I'll try
18 to ask you a question.
19 What I'm thinking about is, the notion of
20 consciousness on one hand, and one's body on the other.
21 Those are two separate, distinct things that have a
22 relationship, but don't come from the same place.
23 And what the question is that I have is, is
24 whether the relationship between the Ananda Church and the
25 Ananda Village, Inc. is comparable.
812
813
1 What I want to formulate a decent question to ask
2 you about is whether the Ananda Village -- or the Ananda
3 Church is the entity which determines the direction which
4 the Ananda Village takes.
5 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Could I ask you, then, to --
6 MR. GREENE: Q. And that's my question. I think
7 I did a pretty good --
8 So my question to you is -- to recapitulate, is,
9 to your knowledge, does the Ananda Church determine what the
10 practices of Ananda Village, Inc. will be?
11 MR. PARSONS: Vague as to "determine," and
12 "practices."
13 THE WITNESS: What do you mean by "practices"?
14 MR. PARSONS: Lacks foundation. You can --
15 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, will you give me an answer,
16 please?
17 MR. PARSONS: Well, he's just asked for
18 clarification of the question.
19 MR. GREENE: Q. Let me --
20 THE WITNESS: Are you referring to spiritual
21 practices?
22 MR. GREENE: Q. This is how I come to
23 "practice."
24 Because in what you told me before when we were
25 talking, was that what -- part of what Ananda Village, Inc.
813
814
1 does is involved with the practice of the teachings. And so
2 what I want to know is, in the sense that you use that term,
3 whether the source -- now, this is a different question; it
4 goes to the same area -- whether the source --
5 MR. PARSONS: Are we on a new question now?
6 MR. GREENE: Yes.
7 MR. PARSONS: Okay.
8 MR. GREENE: I'm trying to articulate it in a
9 better way.
10 Q. Whether the source of the teachings is the Ananda
11 Church.
12 MR. PARSONS: And I'm sorry, so the question is,
13 what?
14 MR. GREENE: Well, let me try to break it down and
15 back up a little bit.
16 Q. When you told me that what the Ananda Village in
17 part does involves the practice of the teachings, what did
18 you mean in your use of the term "practice of the teachings"?
19 A. I don't think I said that. We could either read
20 the record over, or I could restate it if you like.
21 Q. Why don't you restate it, because that's what I
22 heard. I may have misheard.
23 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Now, so this witness is now
24 going to restate testimony to some prior question which is
25 not before him at the moment?
814
815
1 MR. GREENE: Q. No. The question is, is when --
2 that you said that the -- part of what Ananda Village, Inc.
3 does involves the practice of the teachings.
4 A. Excuse me, I didn't say that.
5 Q. All right.
6 A. I said it involves the practical aspects of our
7 life. That's very different.
8 Q. Okay. So when you say that it involves the
9 practical aspects of our life, are you talking about things
10 such as housing and all those things that you enumerated --
11 old age, don't have to be charges of the government, so on
12 and so forth?
13 MR. PARSONS: I do want to object, in that now
14 he's apparently testifying again about a prior question
15 which isn't before him.
16 Apparently the witness has some idea of some
17 question, so I'll permit him to testify. But I want that
18 objection clear, that I don't know what he's testifying
19 about.
20 THE WITNESS: I'll have to answer as I understand
21 your question. Okay?
22 MR. GREENE: Q. That's the only basis for it.
23 A. My understanding of this issue is that Ananda
24 Village is concerned with those things, and with roads and
25 water, businesses.
815
816
1 Ananda Church of Self-Realization would be
2 involved in the question of, is this business something that
3 offends our teachings, such as a butchery shop when we're
4 vegetarian, things of that nature.
5 So where the ideals of our teachings and religion
6 are concerned, the church would be involved in that.
7 Whether it is a business decision from the
8 village -- because we all live together, we all pretty well
9 speak together anyway. But from the usual theoretical
10 attempt to divide functions, which is usually really only
11 theoretical, then the decision of the day-to-day running
12 would be essentially village. Not under the direction of
13 the church, but under the approval.
14 Q. Okay. And when you say under the approval, that
15 would be under the approval of yourself as one person; right?
16 A. Ultimately, it would be my decision.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. If there was any controversy, it would be my
19 decision.
20 Q. That would be your choice?
21 A. We always had the policy from the very beginning
22 to run things from a grass roots level. So if it comes to
23 my level, that means that people haven't been able to
24 resolve it, or there is some kind of question.
25 Or sometimes I will see that something needs to be
816
817
1 resolved that they haven't noticed, and then they'll come in
2 and say, on a matter of principle, this is right or not
3 right. But that's how it is.
4 Q. Okay. So really, the buck stops with you?
5 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. Mischaracterizes
6 his testimony. I don't know what "buck stops" with this
7 witness means.
8 You may respond.
9 THE WITNESS: I think you could say that.
10 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. We'll talk about ideals a
11 little bit.
12 Now, as you well know, you know lots more than I
13 do, but I'm trying to learn something. And so my question
14 is, for starters, are you familiar with something called the
15 Eightfold Path of Patanjali?
16 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection, "familiar with."
17 You may respond.
18 THE WITNESS: As well as one can be familiar with
19 something like that, yes, I know.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. And I think I mispronounced
21 again --
22 A. Patanjali.
23 Q. Patanjali, thank you.
24 A. P-a-t-a-n-j-a-l-i.
25 MR. GREENE: Q. The Eightfold Path of Patanjali
817
818
1 involves certain moral precepts. Is that fair to say?
2 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague as to "fair." Go
3 ahead.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course.
5 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And one step has to do --
6 is called Yama. Is that right?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. And Yama has to do with moral conduct?
9 A. Yes, you could say that.
10 Q. Okay. And Yama is fulfilled by not injuring other
11 people. Is that right?
12 A. That's one.
13 Q. And it's fulfilled by being truthful?
14 A. It's -- no, it's odd the way they put it. Not
15 injuring, not telling untruth -- anyway, that's teaching. I
16 don't have to get into that.
17 Yes, that's essentially right.
18 Q. That's essentially -- okay. And not stealing is
19 part of Yama, part of moral conduct?
20 A. Some authorities say that. I contest that. It
21 essentially means non-- Autobiography says that, but that's
22 not Yogananda's footnote.
23 No, it means, nonavarice.
24 Q. Okay, all right. Well, let me -- I don't have two
25 copies of the Autobiography of a Yogi.
818
819
1 A. Yes, but I'm familiar with it.
2 Q. But I'm sure you probably know it inside and out.
3 MR. PARSONS: Well, it's gone through many
4 different editions, so it's important --
5 THE WITNESS: I could look at it.
6 MR. PARSONS: If you're going to ask this witness
7 a question concerning the document.
8 MR. GREENE: Q. I'd be happy to.
9 Let me share with you, if I might, on page 262 --
10 and this --
11 MR. PARSONS: This will end up with a question, I
12 hope.
13 MR. GREENE: Of course.
14 These books are weird. They don't have --
15 THE WITNESS: I can find it for you.
16 MR. PARSONS: You don't know what he's looking
17 for.
18 MR. GREENE: Q. I was trying to identify -- this
19 is the most recent volume at the bookstore.
20 What I'm looking at is on page 262, the paragraph
21 -- first paragraph at the bottom of the page that starts
22 with "The Yoga system of Patanjali is known," and would you
23 read that paragraph -- you might as well read it into the
24 record.
25 A. I'm familiar with it, yes.
819
820
1 "The Yoga system of Patanjali is known as the
2 Eightfold Path. The first steps are one, Yama, moral
3 conduct; two, Niyamas, religious observance.
4 "Yama is fulfilled by noninjury to others,
5 truthfulness, nonstealing, continence and
6 noncovetousness."
7 Do you want me to go on?
8 Q. No, that's okay.
9 A. Now, the non --
10 MR. PARSONS: Wait. He hasn't asked a question.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. What were you going to say? The
12 note?
13 A. I will wait for you to ask your question.
14 Q. Okay. That's fine. May I see the book back?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thanks. Okay. So to your knowledge, what you
17 just read, that's Paramhansa Yogananda's own writing.
18 A. No, I don't believe it is. I think an editor
19 interpolated that, because nonsealing doesn't make sense.
20 You don't have to tell most people who are on the
21 spiritual path not to steal. Not to have avarice, not to
22 covet. Probably noncovetousness is probably an even better
23 translation. That would make sense for everybody.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. His book is heavily edited, I should add.
820
821
1 Q. Now, the Eightfold Path of --
2 A. Patanjali.
3 Q. -- Patanjali is -- and the aspects which you just
4 read into the record, with the exception of nonstealing, are
5 those -- do you consider -- well, first, do you consider
6 those things to be ideals?
7 MR. PARSONS: Okay. I'll ask this question be
8 read back, because I'm totally lost with what the
9 interrogatory is.
10 MR. GREENE: I'll do it all over again. Okay.
11 Q. Do you consider that the first step of the
12 Eightfold Path of Patanjali, which says that "Yama is
13 fulfilled by noninjury to others," do you consider that to
14 be an ideal?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. And do you consider that -- with the same context,
17 the Eightfold Path of Patanjali, and that Yama is fulfilled
18 by truthfulness --
19 A. Right.
20 Q. -- as being an ideal?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. And do you consider in the same context continence
23 to be an ideal?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And noncovetousness to be an ideal?
821
822
1 A. I do. There was another there.
2 Q. Well, that is one you had kind of disagreed with,
3 which was nonstealing.
4 MR. PARSONS: Well, he had a different --
5 THE WITNESS: It doesn't matter.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. Let me explore that and clarify
7 it.
8 You indicated to me that there is some difficulty
9 that you have with the language here on page 262 of
10 Autobiography of a Yogi, with the specific term, quote,
11 "nonstealing," close quote.
12 What's your criticism of that?
13 MR. PARSONS: Well, I do want to object.
14 You know, I really fail to see the relevancy of
15 this. We're wasting tremendous amounts of time with these
16 questions which are grasping around on doctrinal matters
17 which have no relevancy whatsoever to a sexual harassment
18 lawsuit.
19 I want to go on the record stating my objection to
20 this waste of time, because I know this deposition is going
21 to roll on for days without end.
22 So with my objection on the record, you may
23 respond to the question.
24 THE WITNESS: You don't want to ask the judge?
25 MR. PARSONS: Well --
822
823
1 MR. GREENE: You're outvoted, Mr. Parsons. At
2 least quantitatively. You got the qualitative call, though.
3 MR. PARSONS: Well, you know, I'll tell you what
4 -- and here is the problem.
5 There's no bright line on this stuff, you know.
6 There's not like one question which jumps on and slaps you
7 as, this is it, when you're talking about wandering so far
8 afield.
9 So at this point, I'm suffice to simply going on
10 the record, stating my firm objection to a waste of time.
11 MR. GREENE: Okay, fine. It's not a waste of
12 time.
13 Q. Do you remember the question?
14 A. It is a waste of time. However, I've gone into it
15 at length in classes, and it usually takes lengths to
16 explain.
17 However, I'll tell you, just encapsulated, that
18 nonstealing means not wanting what somebody else has. And
19 that's -- there's a mental as well as a material aspect to
20 each one of these.
21 You may have to kill bugs when you drive, just
22 because they're in the way. But you don't have to wish
23 injury to them. So it's the mental side.
24 You -- even if you don't steal, if you covet,
25 that's mental stealing. So covetousness is more important
823
824
1 than actual stealing, because if you don't covet, you won't
2 steal anyway.
3 The other one, which this -- as you read, said
4 noncovetousness, that's not correct, in my understanding.
5 The correct reading would be, non -- first of all, the first
6 one is, nondesire for what you don't own; the second is,
7 nonattachment to what nominally you do own, which is your
8 clothes, your -- whatever it is you own physically. But not
9 to be attached to it as yours.
10 Q. Okay. And the relevance that that has to the
11 teachings in general, if I understand it correctly, is that
12 the idea of attachment is something that's connected to ego,
13 which gets in the way of being open to God. Is that a fair
14 characterization?
15 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Argumentative, "fair
16 characterization" of what's obviously a complex issue.
17 Go ahead.
18 THE WITNESS: But I would say yes.
19 MR. GREENE: I'd like to mark this as next in
20 order.
21 (Exhibit 28 was marked.)
22 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Now, taking a look at
23 Exhibit 28, is Exhibit 28 essentially a -- like a part of a
24 study book having to do with Yama as it is taught in the
25 Ananda community?
824
825
1 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Foundation.
2 THE WITNESS: It looks like a fair representation.
3 MR. PARSONS: Well, do you know?
4 He's asking for your knowledge or opinion.
5 THE WITNESS: I know that these things that
6 they're saying are taken from what I wrote. I don't know
7 this particular page. They've put that together.
8 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. But you are familiar with
9 the 14 Steps that you --
10 A. Yes. I'm not trying to get out of questions. I
11 just want them clear.
12 Q. Oh, no, no. Absolutely. So do I. I just have
13 sometimes a hard time of getting there.
14 And to your knowledge, Exhibit 28 comes from
15 Lessons 4 and 5 of the 14 Steps. Right?
16 A. It comes from the 14 Steps.
17 I'll be happy to have this.
18 Q. Now, let me ask you, as to Exhibit 28, would the
19 Ananda Village, Inc. be responsible, to your knowledge, for
20 the distribution of 28?
21 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Well, it assumes facts
22 not in evidence, it's ambiguous, it shows -- there's no
23 basis for this witness to testify as to whether it is, and
24 it's unclear.
25 But go ahead, if you can.
825
826
1 THE WITNESS: It would probably be from the
2 ministry.
3 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So it would --
4 A. But mind you, if a member of the village is not in
5 the ministry office and gives it to somebody, nobody is
6 going to stop them from giving it, so --
7 Q. I'm just trying to get from you what your
8 knowledge is of what the source of it would be, not what
9 happens to it after --
10 A. It would be the ministry.
11 Q. Earlier, when you told me about how tape
12 recordings of your talks to your knowledge were kept in the
13 archives and in the ministry office, do you have any
14 knowledge whether there exists any inventory?
15 A. Any which?
16 Q. Inventory of such tapes.
17 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. Compound,
18 foundation. Go ahead.
19 Objection also, what "inventory" means. Vague.
20 But go ahead.
21 THE WITNESS: I am sure there is at least a
22 partial inventory. I doubt that there is a complete one.
23 So somewhere between the two.
24 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And just so that we're
25 clear, when I say "inventory," I'm talking about a list.
826
827
1 Does that comport with your understanding?
2 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Okay. Let's go back to Exhibit 27.
4 MR. PARSONS: So no questions on Exhibit 28,
5 except what you've already asked?
6 MR. GREENE: Not pending, no.
7 Q. Now, with respect to -- God, I'm going to forget
8 it -- LD?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. -- LD's question to you, where she says on
11 the last sentence, "And I'd like to know how to work with
12 that on all levels, not just on the level of personality,"
13 close quote.
14 In the matters about which you teach, is there a
15 meaning given to the word "personality"?
16 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's ambiguous.
17 MR. GREENE: Let me try to fill it in a little
18 bit, and I think Mr. Walters and I will be able to converse
19 just fine.
20 Q. What my understanding is of the word
21 "personality" within the context of the teachings that you
22 conduct is that it, personality, is largely an ego-specific
23 phenomenon. Is that fair?
24 MR. PARSONS: Wait.
25 MR. GREENE: Q. Or rather, accurate. Forget
827
828
1 fair. Is that accurate?
2 MR. PARSONS: He doesn't know your understanding.
3 You can't ask him to testify whether your --
4 MR. GREENE: Yeah, I can.
5 MR. PARSONS: -- if that's accurately your
6 understanding. That's the question before this witness, is
7 his understanding of your understanding.
8 MR. GREENE: I'll withdraw it and rephrase it.
9 Q. Based on the matters about which you teach, is
10 there a functional equivalency between the term
11 "personality" and something which revolves around ego?
12 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Vague. Teachings, functional
13 equivalency, the phrase "something that revolves around
14 ego."
15 I make no sense at all of this. The witness can
16 respond if he does.
17 THE WITNESS: No, it doesn't make sense.
18 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. We'll go further.
19 Oaky-doke.
20 Now, you answer --
21 A. I could explain something in the teachings --
22 Q. Would you explain it? Because I do want to learn.
23 MR. PARSONS: Wait a minute. This witness is not
24 here to explain the teachings. He's here to answer
25 questions under oath.
828
829
1 MR. GREENE: Let me ask him a question,
2 Mr. Parsons.
3 Q. What is it about the teachings that you will
4 explain to me that you're about to explain to me right now?
5 MR. PARSONS: Wait. Your Honor, I'm going to
6 object to this type of questioning. I'm going to instruct
7 the witness not to answer so we can get on to something
8 relevant.
9 JUDGE PLISKA: I'll sustain the objection. Move
10 on.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. Under your answer,
12 the -- on page 1 of Exhibit 27, the second paragraph reads,
13 quote:
14 "I imagine it's common for teachers and counselors
15 in every field, not only the spiritual, to identify strongly
16 with their professional roles, to tell themselves," internal
17 quote, "'this,'" underlined, "'is what I am and what I like
18 to be,'" internal quotes closed. "In this respect I find
19 myself outside the norm. I've never really identified
20 myself with the role I am supposed to be playing: That of
21 teacher and counselor," close quote.
22 Now, is it true that in 1983, you considered
23 yourself to be a teacher?
24 A. I am a teacher.
25 Q. Okay. And you were then; correct?
829
830
1 A. The question here is whether I identified with
2 that role.
3 Q. No, no, no. That's not my question.
4 My question to you is, in the context -- I'm not
5 asking you about whether you identify with being a teacher.
6 I'm asking you whether you were.
7 MR. PARSONS: Okay. If it's outside the context
8 of this quote, then I object that "teacher" is vague.
9 You may respond.
10 THE WITNESS: And why have the quote if we have
11 another question?
12 MR. PARSONS: But nonetheless --
13 THE WITNESS: I simply am a teacher. So that's --
14 I don't know how you could say I wasn't.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And a counselor also.
16 Correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague as to
19 "counselor." Go ahead.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. And when you -- okay.
21 But when you talk here, "I have never really
22 identified myself with the role I am supposed to be
23 playing," what do you mean by that?
24 A. I mean that as a teacher, I try to learn rather
25 than talk down to anybody. I feel that somebody who is just
830
831
1 on our mailing list may know more than I do.
2 So my form of teaching is not, here I am
3 dictating, here I am teaching, here I am counseling. I'm
4 trying to listen and hear what their own higher self is
5 saying, what they might teach me.
6 And in the context of what their desires and
7 interests are, I try to offer clarity.
8 Q. Isn't it true that in your capacity of spiritual
9 director of the Ananda Church and the Ananda Village, you're
10 a counselor?
11 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague as to time. Go
12 ahead.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. In the last 3 years?
14 MR. PARSONS: Still vague as to time. Go ahead.
15 THE WITNESS: In that context, of course.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. And also within the last 3 years,
17 as spiritual director of Ananda Village and Ananda Church,
18 you were a teacher too. Right?
19 MR. PARSONS: Same objection.
20 THE WITNESS: Same answer.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Which is yes; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now -- no, withdraw that.
24 Is it your belief that your assumption of the --
25 well, let me withdraw that.
831
832
1 Do you draw a distinction between the role of
2 teacher and the role of counselor?
3 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague as to time,
4 unclear as to those terms.
5 Go ahead.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. I would have to think about
7 it. I've never drawn a distinction.
8 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So there -- I mean, are
9 the terms "teacher" and "counselor" different ways of
10 describing the same thing, as you use those terms?
11 A. You see, I don't use those terms. I'm just a
12 human being who shares what he can share with others. And
13 you can call it counseling, you can call it teaching. I
14 haven't called it anything, really.
15 Q. Except here in Exhibit 28, do you refer to
16 yourself as a teacher and counselor?
17 A. Well, one has to use words.
18 MR. PARSONS: You're misstating the document,
19 which speaks for itself. Which clearly, in fact, I think
20 contradicts your question. But go ahead.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. In fact, you've dedicated your
22 life to both teaching and counseling, haven't you?
23 A. I've dedicated my life to serving.
24 Q. And when you say serving, you're talking serving
25 other people. Right?
832
833
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And the way that you serve other people is through
3 acting as a teacher in part, isn't it?
4 A. You see, I've tried to clarify that for you.
5 Other people may use such a word. I may use it under
6 duress.
7 I don't think of it as -- I think of it as serving
8 people. I have a mental clarity which I can bring to bear
9 on certain things. I offer them this. I say, take it or
10 leave it. I don't say, I am an authority, I am an expert, I
11 know, don't you think you -- I never say that.
12 So how do I answer your question? I -- see, other
13 people reading the word "teacher" would have a different
14 idea of it than I have. To me, it's a service.
15 MR. PARSONS: I'd also like to say, we've been
16 going about an hour. I'd like to take a break.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, let's take a break.
18 MR. PARSONS: If you're towards the end of a line
19 of questions --
20 MS. RUSH: It's more than an hour.
21 MR. PARSONS: In other words, I don't -- if you
22 have a line of questions here --
23 MR. GREENE: I am in the middle of a line of
24 questions. And we haven't been going an hour yet.
25 THE WITNESS: I think still, medically, it would
833
834
1 be good for me to take break.
2 MR. GREENE: That's fine. So say we'll be back
3 here at 1:30?
4 THE VIDEO OPERTOR: We're going off the record at
5 2:21 p.m.
6 (Recess from 2:21 p.m. to 2:38 p.m.)
7 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: We're back on the record at
8 2:38 p.m.
9 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Mr. Walters, the reason --
10 one reason that you teach is because Yogananda told you to.
11 Right?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And another reason why you teach is because you
14 consider teaching to be your path to salvation. Correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And originally, you didn't want to teach. Right?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And do you consider your not wanting to teach a
19 form of nonattachment to teaching?
20 MR. PARSONS: I'm going to object. It's -- the
21 terms are ambiguous in this context, "nonattachment to
22 teaching."
23 I'll let the witness answer, although again I
24 object to this stream of irrelevant questions so far afield
25 that there is no relevancy even to lead to discoverable
834
835
1 matter. But go ahead.
2 THE WITNESS: I could say it's a manifestation of
3 nonattachment. Certainly if I were attached to teaching, I
4 would want to be teaching.
5 MR. GREENE: Q. Right.
6 A. So it's an expression of nonattachment, example,
7 manifestation.
8 Q. And based on your teaching, really there's no
9 greater value in the role of a leader than there is in the
10 role of carpenter. Right?
11 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Argumentative. Vague as
12 to based on your teaching.
13 Go ahead.
14 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, the teachings don't make
15 any such statement. That's my personal statement.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. And that's your own personal
17 belief. Right?
18 A. That's my own personal attitude. I would say yes,
19 perhaps belief also.
20 Q. Excuse me?
21 A. Perhaps also belief.
22 Q. Now, you consider yourself to be a leader, don't
23 you?
24 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague as to "leader,"
25 misstates his testimony. Also irrelevant.
835
836
1 Go ahead.
2 THE WITNESS: I really don't know how to answer
3 that. I function in that role.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Directing your attention
5 to the last paragraph of Exhibit 27, on the first page, it
6 states, quote:
7 "Moreover, I have never particularly wanted a
8 following. Again, it isn't that I dislike the idea.
9 In fact, I've always accepted it as my karma to be a
10 leader. Even in childhood, other children, sometimes
11 even adults, tended to look to me for leadership,"
12 close quote.
13 Now, in your use of the term "leadership," what do
14 you mean?
15 A. I mean --
16 MR. PARSONS: Again, in this paragraph?
17 MR. GREENE: Q. Yes.
18 A. To clarify it, I should read the next sentence.
19 "Here, to, if people don't want my leadership, or if they
20 want to be leaders" --
21 MR. GREENE: Q. Mr. Walters, I --
22 A. -- "I'm personally happy for them to hold the
23 reigns."
24 MR. PARSONS: He's entitled to read another part
25 of the record into the record.
836
837
1 JUDGE PLISKA: That's correct, Mr. Greene. It
2 seems to me, to clarify his answer, he's entitled to do
3 that.
4 THE WITNESS: And that's my clarification. So
5 what did you ask again?
6 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. My question is --
7 A. What do people think?
8 Q. -- do you consider yourself --
9 MR. PARSONS: No, listen.
10 MR. GREENE: Q. -- to be a leader?
11 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. Vague as to
12 "leader." That's been asked and answered.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. The word itself can be defined
14 in many ways. I consider the position of leadership to be a
15 position of service, whatever the dictionary says.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. When you say that you consider a
17 position of leadership to be a position of service, is the
18 service that you're talking about one which -- or one in
19 which you aspire toward leading other people to higher
20 states of consciousness?
21 MR. PARSONS: Okay. I need that question read
22 back. I haven't followed it.
23 Could you read the question back, please.
24 (Record read.)
25 THE WITNESS: No.
837
838
1 MR. GREENE: Q. What is the service you're
2 talking about?
3 A. Well, the first one I mentioned was the same as in
4 teaching, that I bring clarity to questions, decisions.
5 The other aspect of leadership is that --
6 MR. PARSONS: Excuse me, service is the question.
7 THE WITNESS: Service is -- no, but I'm addressing
8 service.
9 MR. PARSONS: Okay, fine.
10 THE WITNESS: That the leader has to take the
11 responsibility for a decision, whether it's right or wrong.
12 In other words, he has to bear the blame. That's
13 a kind of service. I'm willing to carry the load for others
14 if they don't want to. I'd say those were the two main
15 things.
16 The other would be enthusiasm. A leader would
17 have to be a person with an enthusiastic nature who believes
18 in what he's doing, doesn't order other people to do it, but
19 says that it means a lot to me, if you like to join me,
20 please join me. That's all.
21 I'd say that defines leadership as I understand
22 it.
23 I should also mention that I've written a book on
24 the subject called The Art of Supportive Leadership, and in
25 there, there's a much longer exposition of what it's all
838
839
1 about.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. Why don't we take a
3 look at that.
4 This will be Plaintiff's next in order.
5 (Exhibit 29 was marked.)
6 THE WITNESS: That's an older edition.
7 MR. PARSONS: Well, just wait until he asks you a
8 question about it.
9 MR. GREENE: Q. Directing your attention to
10 Exhibit 29, which is a photocopy of a booklet entitled The
11 Art of Creative Leadership, did you author that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And is that the work that you were referring to
14 when you just said you had written something on the subject
15 of leadership?
16 A. It's the precursor of the work I was referring to,
17 which is more -- it's longer.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. I've clarified certain ideas in the later book.
20 Q. Okay. This booklet was published by Ananda
21 Publications.
22 In your mind, is there any difference between
23 Ananda Publications and Crystal Clarity Publishers?
24 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague as to time. Also,
25 lack of basis for this witness to testify.
839
840
1 THE WITNESS: At this time, there is none. At one
2 time, there was.
3 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. At this time, there's no
4 difference between the two entities?
5 A. Ananda Publications no longer exists.
6 Q. Did Ananda Publications become, to your knowledge,
7 Crystal Clarity Publishers?
8 A. No.
9 Q. To your knowledge, was there a period of time in
10 which Ananda Publications and Crystal Clarity Publishers
11 existed concomitantly?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. To the best of your recollection, when was that?
14 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Foundation.
15 Go ahead.
16 THE WITNESS: I think it was 1986.
17 MR. GREENE: Q. To your knowledge, was Ananda
18 Publications a component of the Ananda Church?
19 MR. PARSONS: Vague. Objection, vague as to
20 "component."
21 Go ahead.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. And to your knowledge, was --
24 withdraw that.
25 Now, with respect to Exhibit 29 in general, did
840
841
1 you have any particular objective regarding an overall point
2 that you wanted to communicate when you wrote this work?
3 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's vague, ambiguous,
4 "overall point," general intention.
5 You may respond.
6 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to describe the
7 genesis of the book?
8 MR. GREENE: Q. Sure. What was the genesis of
9 the book?
10 MR. PARSONS: Object. Then it calls for a
11 narrative. Go ahead.
12 THE WITNESS: I was in Australia giving lectures
13 there. And the Australians, being very independent people,
14 were asking me about leadership at Ananda, because they
15 don't want anybody telling them what to do.
16 And so I had never read a book on the subject, but
17 I was going into my experience of it, my -- what I've
18 learned from that experience. And those ideas, as I
19 answered these specific questions, seemed to me helpful to
20 everybody, so I turned it into a booklet, and then later
21 made a book out of it.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Now -- and you're familiar
23 with the contents of this booklet, aren't you?
24 A. Well, yes.
25 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. Meaning of
841
842
1 "familiar."
2 THE WITNESS: How familiar, is the question. But
3 of course, I wrote it.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. How familiar -- you -- withdraw
5 that.
6 Now, on page 2, the middle of the second
7 paragraph, you write, quote:
8 "The kind of leader for whom I am writing is
9 concerned not so much with the opinions of others as
10 with the truth, with getting a job done, with inspiring
11 others to join him in working toward a worthy common
12 goal. This implies a willingness to assume the
13 responsibility not merely for success, but also for
14 failure. A willingness to take the risk himself,
15 instead of waiting for others to take it (absolving him
16 thereby of any blame)," end of quote.
17 Is the quote I just read reflective of the manner
18 in which you seek to discharge your role as a leader?
19 MR. PARSONS: Okay. I'm going to object. It's
20 compound. "Reflective" is an ambiguous term. "Discharge"
21 is an ambiguous term as well.
22 And I -- if you can -- go ahead and respond to the
23 extent you can.
24 THE WITNESS: I answered that just before we
25 picked up this book. It's basically the same thing I said
842
843
1 before.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. In terms of being willing to bear
3 the burdens as well as enjoy the benefits?
4 A. Of what?
5 Q. What you had said before, about being willing to
6 bear the burdens of leadership in addition to enjoying the
7 benefits.
8 MR. PARSONS: Well, that misstates what he said
9 before, but --
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. That isn't what I said
11 before.
12 There's no question of enjoying leadership. It's
13 a question of serving. Your joy comes not in bounty or
14 things you receive; it's in the act of giving.
15 If you can help bring people to a good end, that's
16 satisfaction. But that's the only satisfaction that a good
17 leader should think of.
18 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Were you applying the
19 principles of service that you just described to me in the
20 course of your interactions with (woman #7)?
21 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's vague now as to
22 time, vague as to course of interactions. It's also vague
23 as to the principles.
24 You know, I -- I don't understand the question.
25 If you understand the question, Mr. Walters, you can respond
843
844
1 to it.
2 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, yes.
3 MR. GREENE: Q. Yes, you understand, and yes in
4 answer to the question?
5 A. I understand, I was applying the principle of
6 taking the burden on my own shoulders.
7 The fact that I was willing to announce to the
8 public something that she later denied and still kept that
9 and didn't blame her, this is what I'm talking about when I
10 speak of leadership.
11 Q. What do you mean -- what did you announce to the
12 public that --
13 A. That we were married spiritually.
14 By the way, I don't think your --
15 Q. Thank you. I'm not linked, although I'm sure it
16 hears me.
17 So what was the burden of -- was there any burden
18 in announcing to the public that you and (woman #7) had been
19 married spiritually?
20 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection as to the term
21 "burden" and what it means.
22 Again, this whole line of questions is so far
23 afield as to anything relevant here, but I'll let the
24 witness answer.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course there was. The
844
845
1 burden of mockery; the burden of people feeling that, oh,
2 he's left his ideals; the burden of criticisms from people
3 who wouldn't understand.
4 I assumed all of that on my shoulders, and I did
5 it -- I took a lot of courage to do it.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. And when you talk about the
7 burden of others saying, "Oh, he's left his ideals," are you
8 making reference to matters which in any way pertain to
9 celibacy?
10 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Burden of others, though
11 he's left his ideals. I don't think those concepts have
12 been linked in the testimony, so it misstates his testimony.
13 MR. GREENE: Mr. Parsons, it just came out of your
14 client's mouth.
15 MR. PARSONS: Well, I would like the question read
16 back again.
17 THE WITNESS: I didn't say they would say it; I
18 said I took the risk. But the question is regarding
19 celibacy?
20 MR. GREENE: Q. The question is regarding
21 celibacy.
22 And the question is, that when you talk about how
23 you took a risk by announcing to the public your spiritual
24 marriage to (woman #7), and that what the risk was
25 involved incurring the opinion of people that you had given
845
846
1 up your ideals, is what you're making a reference to --
2 A. I took the risk.
3 MR. PARSONS: Wait a minute.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. But I want to know what you're
5 making reference to when you're talking about that people
6 would think that you were giving up your ideals.
7 What in your mind were the ideals that you thought
8 you were taking a risk concerning?
9 MR. PARSONS: Things, comma, concerning.
10 Could I have that question read back, or do you
11 want to restate it?
12 MR. GREENE: I'll rephrase the question.
13 Q. Mr. Walters --
14 MR. PARSONS: And just a question, please.
15 MR. GREENE: Please be quiet, Mr. Parsons, and let
16 me think.
17 Q. When you said that by announcing your spiritual
18 marriage to (woman #7) you felt you were taking a risk,
19 and the risk was that -- or included that other people would
20 conclude that you had given up your ideals, was one of the
21 ideals to which you were making a reference in that
22 statement the ideal of celibacy?
23 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. Misstates his
24 testimony.
25 Go ahead and respond.
846
847
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. Were there any other ideals to
3 which you were making reference in your own mind in that
4 regard in addition to the ideal of celibacy?
5 MR. PARSONS: Same objection. Go ahead.
6 THE WITNESS: You see, I was embracing a new
7 ideal. It wasn't as if I was giving up.
8 So you're talking about other people's opinions,
9 and my taking the risk of their opinions. It doesn't seem
10 terribly apposite.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. What I'm talking about is your
12 telling me that in your own mind you were taking a risk, and
13 the risk that you were taking was incurring other people
14 saying, he's given up his ideals.
15 I'm not talking about what in another sense you
16 were doing. I'm talking about what you were thinking with
17 respect to taking that risk.
18 And you told me that one of the risks were, in
19 that regard, having to do with the ideal of celibacy.
20 And what my question is, is in the same sense,
21 were there any other ideals that you had in your mind
22 concerning which you were exposing yourself to ridicule or
23 mockery, aside from the celibacy ideal?
24 MR. PARSONS: Wait. Objection. Vague, ambiguous,
25 compound, misstates your testimony, assumes facts.
847
848
1 Go ahead.
2 THE WITNESS: Let me explain that I didn't take it
3 worried about the risk. I did it because I felt this was
4 right, and I didn't pay much attention to what other people
5 would think.
6 So I didn't weigh in the balance what they might
7 think; I just knew that it was a courageous step, but this
8 is what I believed would be right for me and for Ananda at
9 that time.
10 I still think I did the right thing.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. Did you believe that it was a
12 courageous step when in Hawaii in April of '81, you first
13 slept with (woman #7)?
14 MR. PARSONS: Objection. It's argumentative, it
15 misstates his testimony.
16 You can go ahead and answer.
17 THE WITNESS: That was the beginning of my -- not
18 the beginning at that moment, but I was feeling that this
19 new direction was necessary for our community.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. But that's not what my
21 question is.
22 Do you remember my question?
23 A. Try again.
24 Q. All right. My question is, at the time that you
25 first had intercourse with (woman #7) in Hawaii, did you
848
849
1 believe that in so doing, you were engaging in a courageous
2 act?
3 MR. PARSONS: I'm going to object to that. That's
4 also argumentative.
5 Now, in fact, I'm going to instruct the witness
6 not to answer that question, because it serves no purpose.
7 There's no discovery involved in here.
8 It calls for his determination, courageous, taking
9 that word out of context from which it's been used before
10 concerning a public announcement, and now transferring it to
11 an intimate, personal act.
12 I think that's an inappropriate question, because
13 it's argumentative.
14 JUDGE PLISKA: No, I think it's a proper question.
15 Please answer it, Mr. Walters.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
17 MR. GREENE: Q. And why did you think that?
18 A. Because I felt that there was something new trying
19 to happen in my life, and for the lives of other people, and
20 I didn't feel that I should weigh other considerations in
21 the balance.
22 I, sleeping with her or not, wasn't the issue.
23 That was never the issue. It was, rather, that I felt that
24 this person completed me in a way that I felt was important
25 for me.
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1 I testified a few days ago that what I gained from
2 that I still feel that I've gained. It's been a permanent
3 benefit. And I think it took courage.
4 Q. Now, did you discuss with members of your
5 community how -- withdraw that.
6 You told me about how you felt -- this is my
7 term -- an evolution of a change that was taking place in
8 yourself which -- again, my terms -- came to fruition in
9 your relationship with (woman #7).
10 A. I did.
11 MR. PARSONS: Wait.
12 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. My question is, did you
13 discuss that evolution and change within yourself with the
14 senior -- any of the senior ministers in your community?
15 MR. PARSONS: It's vague as to time. Object on
16 that ground.
17 You can answer.
18 THE WITNESS: As much as I was able to, which is
19 to say as much as I understood.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. And so you did understand that
21 there was some sort of a nascent change that was taking
22 place inside your soul. Right?
23 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. I think that
24 misstates his testimony.
25 You can respond.
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851
1 THE WITNESS: I did.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And you communicated that
3 to the -- some of the senior ministers in your community,
4 didn't you?
5 MR. PARSONS: Objection as to "that." Go ahead.
6 THE WITNESS: Quite a few.
7 MR. GREENE: Q. And then ultimately, when you --
8 when that evolutionary change came to fruition with (woman #7)
9 , you discussed that coming to fruition with quite a
10 few of the senior members of your community, too, didn't
11 you?
12 MR. PARSONS: Object. Vague, "that coming to
13 fruition." I don't know what that means.
14 You may respond.
15 THE WITNESS: Would you like to explain what it
16 means?
17 MR. GREENE: Q. I'll try again. Sure. Okay.
18 Where we are is that you told me about how there
19 was a -- my terms; I'm not trying to put words in your
20 mouth, I'm just trying to think in my own language -- that a
21 nascent change was happening inside your soul, and you
22 communicated that to members of your community.
23 And ultimately, you in the experience of your life
24 came to the understanding and the conclusion that your
25 relationship with (woman #7) was a fruition of that
851
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1 change.
2 And so what I'm asking is, isn't it true that you
3 discussed how (woman #7) -- your relationship with (woman #7)
4 was a fruition of that change with members of your
5 community?
6 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. Again, "fruition
7 of that change."
8 You can respond, though.
9 THE WITNESS: I talked with a lot of people,
10 including people who didn't live at Ananda. I wasn't
11 telling them, I was asking them.
12 It represented such a radical change for me that I
13 didn't -- I wasn't sure of myself. I wanted advice from
14 people. And I tried to bring that advice together and take
15 it inside and feel whether it was the right thing or not.
16 So as long as it's made -- as long as it's
17 understood that I wasn't just telling them about this. It
18 was very much of a group thing, and therefore the whole
19 community had to be into it and was a part of it.
20 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. So if I understand what
21 you're saying, then, is that you were engaging in an
22 internal struggle about whether this was a proper part of
23 your own personal spiritual development. Right?
24 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Well, I object. Again, you
25 know, the witness has testified. You characterize what he's
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1 been saying in a certain way, and you add layers on to it
2 and loaded words and things like that.
3 I object to this repetitive process of
4 reformulating what the witness has said. His testimony is
5 clear.
6 So I'll ask that the question be read back. If
7 you agree with his reformulation of what you said, you can
8 agree to it.
9 (Record read.)
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And so in an effort to
12 maximize --
13 A. To what?
14 Q. -- maximize, your chances for making a right
15 decision, you sought the advice and counsel of your senior
16 ministers by disclosing the nature of your struggle to
17 them. Correct?
18 MR. PARSONS: Objection. That's vague and
19 ambiguous, but you can respond.
20 THE WITNESS: You see, the word "maximize" could
21 imply a sort of democratic vote. It was nothing to do with
22 that.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. No, I'm not. What I'm trying to
24 convey by that is -- just take "maximize" out. I was trying
25 to --
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854
1 A. Clarify.
2 Q. I was just trying to make it as clear as I
3 possibly could.
4 That since you weren't sure, and you were trying
5 to figure it out for yourself, the best way to do that, and
6 to optimize, maybe, your chances of clarity and making a
7 right decision, was by sharing the nature of your struggle
8 as much as you could with the other senior members of your
9 community that you trusted so that you could get their
10 feedback.
11 MR. PARSONS: I object. Clarify, maximize, share
12 -- the question is ambiguous, it's vague, it's
13 argumentative, apart from being far afield from anything
14 involved in this lawsuit.
15 But you can testify.
16 THE WITNESS: Well, the word I object to is --
17 because we're in a legal situation; I wouldn't cut fine
18 lines here, otherwise.
19 But the word "chances" implies gambling, implies
20 what the odds are. There was none of that.
21 MR. GREENE: Q. All right.
22 A. I was looking for clarity. And if anybody, a
23 child, could give me something that I could grasp and say,
24 this is something that means something to me, then I would
25 take it.
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1 So it was not democratic in the sense of a maximum
2 -- majority vote. It was not odds. It was nothing like
3 that. It was just that I was trying to be clear in myself
4 whether what looked like a right direction, or right
5 decision, and I felt the guidance from within, that I wasn't
6 fooling myself.
7 And when you're that close to something, you don't
8 trust your own judgment. You need other people.
9 So in a way, I was making everybody else my
10 counselor.
11 Q. Okay. And the way that you were making everybody
12 else your counselor was by doing your best to share with
13 them whatever the issues were concerning which you sought
14 clarity.
15 MR. PARSONS: Objection. In fact, I'd ask the
16 question to be read back. There's too many dangling clauses
17 on it to -- could you read that back, please?
18 (Record read.)
19 THE WITNESS: That's not quite true. I shared
20 with them, but that wasn't the way I was asking.
21 I asked the question, is this right? Do you feel
22 it's right? How do you feel inside?
23 I said that I would love to be proved wrong, if
24 I'm wrong. I just want to know the truth.
25 MR. GREENE: Q. And the question that you were
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1 asking was whether or not you should be involved in a sexual
2 relationship with (woman #7). Is that right?
3 A. That wasn't the issue, nor was it in my mind.
4 It was that I felt that we were, as a pair, able
5 to help people.
6 Now, I had to ask people, do you feel this is good
7 for others? Do you feel it's good for me? Do you feel it's
8 good for her? Do you feel this is the right thing, or am I
9 fooling myself?
10 That's all I asked.
11 Q. Was a component of what you were asking inclusive
12 of anything having to do with sex?
13 A. I never asked about that. It's assumed that
14 that's a part of a relationship between a man and a woman.
15 But it was not my question, nor my -- I just
16 assumed that they assumed.
17 Q. Okay. And if I'm understanding you right, the
18 reason that your relationship with (woman #7) was a
19 departure from the direction that you had been heading in
20 before did have something to do with sex, didn't it?
21 A. Say that again?
22 Q. Okay. As I understand you, what -- you're saying
23 that your relationship with (woman #7) was something new in
24 terms of your direct -- the direction you had chosen for
25 your life.
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1 And what I'm asking you is whether or not --
2 MR. PARSONS: Here's the question now.
3 MR. GREENE: Q. What I'm asking you is whether or
4 not the -- what was -- whether or not included in the new
5 direction was something having to do with sex.
6 MR. PARSONS: Could I have the question part of
7 that read back?
8 (Record read.)
9 MR. PARSONS: I -- you know, I think I've got some
10 idea where the question thinks it's going.
11 If you think you understand the question and can
12 answer it, go ahead.
13 THE WITNESS: I don't think I do.
14 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Let me try again, because
15 it's important.
16 There was an aspect of your relationship with
17 (woman #7) that was different from the way you had
18 previously practiced Yogananda's teachings. Isn't that
19 right?
20 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. It's confusing, it
21 misstates his testimony, it draws nonparallel -- it attempts
22 to draw nonparallel comparisons.
23 You can respond.
24 THE WITNESS: Please try again.
25 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. I will try again. I'm
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1 just going to talk a little bit here --
2 MR. PARSONS: Well, now --
3 MR. GREENE: Wait. Hold on, Mr. Parsons -- so
4 that I can set the question up.
5 Q. What I've understood from your testimony is that
6 your relationship with (woman #7) was such that you were
7 of the view that you could give more to other people in
8 consequence.
9 Also, my understanding is that the nature of your
10 relationship with (woman #7) was something which
11 departed from what you had practiced as your spiritual
12 belief previously.
13 And that was something that you sought the advice
14 and counsel about from the other ministers, was that you
15 felt that you were so close to her that you weren't sure
16 whether your belief that going in this direction with
17 (woman #7) was correct, and you wanted their feedback.
18 That's my understanding of what you've told me.
19 Now, what my question was --
20 MR. PARSONS: Now, all of that is a statement.
21 You don't have your question before you yet.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. That's the setup.
23 And what my question is, is when you were
24 struggling with whether or not being involved with (woman #7)
25 was the way you wanted to go, was there any element --
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1 or rather, was there any question in your mind that because
2 sex was involved, that it might be wrong?
3 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. The question is
4 just incredibly convoluted and compound, and operates at
5 many levels. I honestly couldn't formulate an answer to it.
6 If you can formulate an answer to his question,
7 I'll let you do it.
8 I would ask, however, that the question portion of
9 that be read back so it's clear as it can be in your mind
10 when you respond.
11 (Record read.)
12 MR. PARSONS: Okay. It also assumes facts not in
13 evidence and misstates his testimony. And I object on that
14 grounds.
15 THE WITNESS: The question of right and wrong had
16 to do with the totality of the relationship. Sex was not
17 important to me, and less so to her.
18 It was the fact of taking a spiritual partner, a
19 woman, into my work. That she would be sort of like a
20 mother to the community.
21 And those were my questions.
22 MR. PARSONS: He'd like to go to the bathroom, so
23 let's take a --
24 MR. GREENE: Okay. Want to take a 10-minute
25 break? How do you feel, Mr. Walters?
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1 THE WITNESS: 10, fine.
2 MR. GREENE: Come right back if you go to the
3 bathroom, or --
4 THE WITNESS: 10 minutes is fine.
5 MR. GREENE: Sounds good.
6 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: This is the end of videotape
7 number 13 in the deposition of Donald Walters. We're going
8 off the record at 3:16 p.m.
9 (Recess from 3:16 p.m. to 3:28 p.m.)
10 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: This is the beginning of
11 videotape number 14 in the deposition of Donald Walters.
12 We're back on the record at 3:28 p.m.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Mr. Walters, would you
14 direct your attention back to Exhibit 28, which is the talk
15 that you gave in response to the question from Ms. Devi?
16 MR. PARSONS: That's this one here.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is 27; right?
18 MR. GREENE: Q. That's correct.
19 MR. PARSONS: Oh, you said 28. So you meant 27?
20 MR. GREENE: Well, I misspoke. You got the right
21 document, I got the wrong number.
22 Q. And on page 2, the second full paragraph, which is
23 a short one, which states, quote:
24 "I think there is more to be gained even from a
25 teacher-student relationship if it can be rooted in deep
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1 spiritual friendship," close quote.
2 Now, do you consider as a general proposition your
3 relationship as spiritual director at the Ananda Church in
4 relation to the other persons there to be a teacher-student
5 relationship?
6 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. It's vague,
7 ambiguous, definitions of -- go ahead, if you can --
8 THE WITNESS: I consider it a relationship of
9 mutual friendship, primarily.
10 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And you also consider it
11 to be, at least in part, a student -- or a teacher-student
12 relationship, too, don't you?
13 A. No, it's to the extent they call it that; but I
14 don't think of it that way, ever.
15 Q. Okay. Now, you did think of -- in the summer of
16 1983, you had a consideration of a teacher-student
17 relationship in your talk that's reflected here.
18 So why don't you tell me what you meant when you
19 used the term here in Exhibit 27, on page 2, of -- when you
20 discussed a, quote, "student" -- or a "teacher-student
21 relationship," close quote.
22 MR. PARSONS: And the question is, what did he
23 mean by "teacher-student relationship" --
24 MR. GREENE: Yes.
25 MR. PARSONS: -- when used in Exhibit 27? Okay.
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1 MR. GREENE: Correct.
2 THE WITNESS: People consider me their teacher,
3 and I let them consider it.
4 For me, I feel they're as much my teacher as I am
5 theirs; that it's a mutual sharing. Much of what I learn is
6 something I learned from them, either by their example,
7 their words, their wisdom.
8 If they feel that I'm their teacher, then they
9 may. But I don't ever push that on anybody.
10 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, you consider yourself, do
11 you not, to have been charged to serve Ananda members in
12 Yogananda's name. Is that right?
13 MR. PARSONS: Objection. "Charged," "served," "in
14 Yogananda's name." Those words and phrases are ambiguous.
15 Misstates his testimony.
16 You can go ahead and answer them.
17 THE WITNESS: I believe he wanted me to start the
18 community.
19 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And you believe also --
20 A. So let me finish that thought.
21 Q. Oh, excuse me. I didn't mean to interrupt you.
22 I'm sorry.
23 A. That I also consider the role of service as a
24 service to him.
25 Q. Okay. And included in your use of the term "role
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1 of service" is role of counselor; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Role of teacher; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And role of leader; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. And you believe that you've been --
8 have a charge -- not in the sense of electricity, but in the
9 sense of a responsibility from God --
10 A. Of what?
11 Q. -- from God, to teach Yogananda's teachings, don't
12 you?
13 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Misstates his
14 testimony.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, he does misstate it. But he
16 asked me to, and I believe what he said was God's will.
17 That's not as if God had appeared in a cloud and told me to
18 do something.
19 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay, all right.
20 And directing your attention to page 5 of Exhibit
21 27, second paragraph, second sentence, which states, quote:
22 "Were I to give you my friendship only as a human
23 being and to seek your friendship in return only for myself,
24 I would be betraying the charge that I have been given to
25 serve you in Master's name," close quote.
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1 Now, what do you mean when you say that if you
2 sought a student's -- well, let me lay the foundation.
3 You're in that sentence talking to your students,
4 aren't you?
5 A. That was the situation. I was answering a
6 question.
7 Q. Okay. And when you say that if you were to give
8 your students your friendship only as a human being, and
9 seek friendship only in -- in return only for yourself, you
10 would be betraying the charge that you had been given to
11 serve your students in Yogananda's name, what do you mean?
12 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. Compound.
13 You may answer as many parts of that as you can
14 remember.
15 THE WITNESS: I can try. It's a subtle point.
16 But as in the Hindu vows of marriage, they say the husband
17 should love the wife, not only for the sake of the wife, but
18 for God's presence, God behind the wife.
19 The wife should love the husband not for the
20 husband alone, but for God's sake.
21 In other words, everything that we do in this
22 world should be depersonalized in the sense that we try to
23 bring God into it. It's not just two personalities liking
24 each other in a partying way, but that it's in a higher
25 relationship, that we try to see God in one another and try
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865
1 to talk from what we feel to be the truth rather than from
2 our likes and dislikes.
3 That's a very important principle in Ananda, and
4 in what we're trying to do, to live for God and in God, in
5 one another and in ourselves.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. Does the notion of ego have any
7 application or part of that principle which you just
8 described?
9 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. Vague as to
10 "notion of ego," and also vague as to "that principle just
11 described."
12 Go ahead.
13 THE WITNESS: In a book I wrote this year, which
14 has not yet been published, called Superconsciousness,
15 subtitled A Guide to Meditation, I bring up the question of
16 ego, because in so much spiritual teaching, ego is
17 considered purely a bad thing.
18 And yet it's our ego that lifts us above the level
19 of the animal. Because the animal knows generally there's
20 suffering going on, but man is sufficiently conscious to
21 know, I'm suffering, each individual, I'm suffering.
22 Therefore, man with his ego uses that degree of
23 self-consciousness to -- as an incentive to grow
24 spiritually. To that extent, an ego is a great gift of God.
25 If, however, you cut yourself off in your sense of
865
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1 ego, then that's the wrong use of ego.
2 So ego in itself is not a bad principle. It's how
3 it's directed, how it's used.
4 If it blocks your progress by making you
5 self-important, then it's not good. If it gives you the
6 incentive to feel compassion rather than just letting pain
7 go on in this world, that is the use of ego in a good way,
8 again with creativity, to use ego in a way of wanting to do
9 something beautiful, rather than just acting to eat and
10 sleep and so on, then this is a good use of ego.
11 So I've clarified something that hasn't been
12 talked of very much. Yogananda made it clear in different
13 talks. But mainly, from what I've read, there isn't enough
14 clarity on that point, because ego is always denounced as
15 wrong. That's a mistake.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. So if ego manifests itself in
17 terms of someone having a like or a dislike that gets in the
18 way of spiritual development, then you would say that's a
19 bad use of ego. Right?
20 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Misstates his testimony,
21 "bad use of ego." A lot of those words are ambiguous and
22 vague.
23 Go ahead, if you can answer.
24 THE WITNESS: I can try.
25 You see, it would be so much easier if we were
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867
1 having a philosophical discussion. But because I have to
2 weigh every word, it becomes a different sort of thing.
3 But you cannot speak of something like spiritual
4 progress as A, B, C, D. It's more like, well, you could say
5 that -- like a country being invaded by an Army, and one
6 part will go forward, another part will be beaten back.
7 What you like and what you don't like has to be
8 based on certain things you ought to like. You ought to
9 like love, kindness, generosity. And if you don't, that
10 dislike is not good.
11 If you don't -- see, the ideal is to rise above
12 likes and dislikes. But that doesn't bring into the picture
13 the fact that you have to like the right things. And that's
14 not a personal liking, I want to own it.
15 Rather, I like love, kindness, humility. I want
16 to enter into that stream; not, I want to possess it. Not I
17 want to be looked up to, because I am this.
18 If you can divorce your ego from it and feel that
19 you're entering into that stream of divine love, not to like
20 it would give you no incentive.
21 So obviously, in that context, you need likes and
22 dislikes.
23 If it's a question of selfish likes and dislikes
24 -- I want money; I want anything, a car or whatever -- then
25 that is an obstacle, hypothetically, theoretically; not
867
868
1 necessarily.
2 If you -- I'll give you another example. You're
3 asking me to explain our teachings. Okay.
4 Supposing -- what I'm trying to say is that there
5 is a directional truth that we -- for example, if Jesus
6 Christ or Mahatma Gandhi or somebody who gave his life to
7 serving people decided one day, I'm sick of serving
8 humanity, I want to go out and become a millionaire,
9 everybody in the world, even the mafia, would say he's done
10 something wrong.
11 But if you had someone who's lazy, never did
12 anything and finally got off his bed of ease and said, I'm
13 tired of being lazy, I want to go out and become a
14 millionaire, whereas for some people to want to become a
15 millionaire would be a mistake, I think everybody, even
16 saints, would applaud that lazy man's decision, because it
17 would be something taking him in the direction of taking
18 charge of his life, not being a slave to something, not
19 being a slave to other people's will for him, doing
20 something for himself.
21 And so in his case, it would be a virtuous act,
22 and one that I think even masters would counsel.
23 So you can't speak generally. You have to speak
24 to the individual. Where is he on this, let's say, road to
25 perfection?
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1 If he's almost there and ready to leave behind any
2 thought of self-fulfillment, and then suddenly wants to
3 become a millionaire, it's wrong.
4 If you're trying to get him on to the road or he
5 wants to get himself on the road, then you'd have to say,
6 well, if he wants that, that's great.
7 But again, spiritual progress -- and I have to
8 stress this points -- is impossible unless it comes from
9 your own decision. It cannot be imposed on you by somebody
10 else's direction or demanding obedience of you or anything
11 of that type. It has to be your decision, ultimately.
12 MR. GREENE: Q. Would you say that the ultimate
13 end of the path to perfection is a selfless service to
14 others?
15 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection, path to
16 perfection, selfless service. It's argumentative, it's
17 ambiguous, it's vague. I guess this is probably an
18 appropriate time to object again.
19 We are spending hours on an extraneous doctrinal
20 discussion from summer of 1983 which has no relevancy to
21 this case whatsoever and is taking up a tremendous amount of
22 time.
23 And I'm going to object to the deposition being
24 continued beyond the days which have already been specified,
25 if we're spending this kind of time on this kind of subject.
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1 You may, however, answer.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course. I've answered it
3 already. I've said that each individual has a different
4 path, different things to work out.
5 The people living at Ananda, each one is
6 individual. Each one demands or feels the need for
7 different kinds of fulfillment.
8 For example, the very question --
9 MR. GREENE: Q. Wait, wait, wait. My
10 question --
11 A. I'm answering your question --
12 Q. It's a narrow --
13 A. No, I can answer it.
14 JUDGE PLISKA: Please let him finish. He's
15 entitled to clarify his answer.
16 THE WITNESS: My answer is that selfless service
17 is not for everybody. It's for those who -- for whom it's
18 right.
19 That's a silly answer, but how can I do better
20 without going into it in depth?
21 But some people, the right path is to meditate in
22 a cave, to give themselves to God. Their service is
23 self-offering to God in a silence. But you can't make an
24 absolute rule on these things, because it depends on where
25 each individual is.
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1 I saw -- if I may go into a discursive narrative,
2 I saw ascetics in India at a big religious fair who did
3 nothing but -- they never sat down, they never laid down to
4 rest. They would lean on a platform, and they looked
5 gross. Their legs were swollen.
6 I found myself mentally criticizing this as
7 fanaticism.
8 And God showed me that I should never judge,
9 because that same day I met another man who for 12 years, 13
10 years, had never lain down, never sat down, and you could
11 see that he was well-formed, his face was radiant.
12 Somehow, ways that I can't understand, but somehow
13 it was the right thing for him to practice that kind of
14 asceticism.
15 But it was for him; probably not for these
16 others. At least, they didn't show it.
17 MR. GREENE: Q. Do you consider for yourself that
18 what you practice is selfless service?
19 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Again, "selfless
20 service."
21 Go ahead.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. I don't know what you mean by
23 "selfless service" put in the context of me personally,
24 because the fact is, I find great joy in serving, in
25 sharing, in clarifying; and I anticipate that the time will
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1 come when I feel I've done that and don't need to do it
2 anymore.
3 But I still feel joy in that. Now, that's not
4 selfless, but it is selfless in the sense that it's an
5 expansion of self rather than a contraction of self.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. Earlier, when you were talking
7 about someone having the choice whether to go in the
8 direction of compassion or kindness and gentleness and so
9 on, would you also include among those ideals the ideal of
10 honesty?
11 MR. PARSONS: Objection. "Ideals," I'm not
12 certain -- so objection to the use of "ideals," objection to
13 the definition of "honesty," misstates his prior testimony.
14 You may respond.
15 THE WITNESS: Sure.
16 MR. GREENE: Q. Now directing your attention
17 again to Exhibit 27, page 5, the third paragraph which
18 states, quote:
19 "Let me underscore what I have said so far. In my
20 relationship with Master, I have found that I am" --
21 A. I should clarify, this means Yogananda, my guru.
22 Q. Correct. And for the purpose of all of my
23 discussion with you, that's my understanding of your use of
24 the term "Master," is that --
25 A. Quite right. I did this for the record.
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1 Q. Right, I appreciate that. That refers to
2 Yogananda. Quote:
3 "In my relationship with Master, I have found that
4 I am the most in tune with him when I don't have the thought
5 of what I'm getting from him, but dwell, rather, in the
6 thought of what I'm giving to him."
7 Now, would you characterize what you are
8 describing in that sentence as being selfless?
9 MR. PARSONS: Well, I object, in that -- you know,
10 what he's describing -- I'm objecting to the phrase, "what
11 you're describing in the sentence." I think it's compound,
12 the document speaks for itself.
13 But you may respond.
14 THE WITNESS: I guess what I was trying to say
15 earlier, that no one can be selfless completely until he has
16 transended the awareness of ego.
17 Therefore, there is a good selflessness, which is
18 to say, good selfishness. That is to say, when I give
19 myself, I am not being totally selfless, because there's
20 still a sense of self to be given.
21 But with that understanding, I think it's
22 irrelevant and confusing to say, "is that selfless?" But it
23 is certainly pertinent and apposite to say it's an attempt
24 at achieving selflessness.
25 This is becoming a philosophical -- a philisophy
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1 class. If you want it, that's fine.
2 MR. PARSONS: That's been all day.
3 MR. GREENE: Q. I do. I appreciate it.
4 Directing your attention to Exhibit 29. And on
5 page 4 --
6 A. Page 4. Okay.
7 Q. At the end of the -- the last sentence of the
8 first full paragraph says, quote, "A leader, to be
9 effective, has little choice but to" --
10 A. Where, excuse me?
11 MR. PARSONS: "A leader." Right there.
12 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. Sorry.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. On the same wavelength now?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. Quote: "A leader, to be effective, has
16 little choice but to accept some, at least, of the outward
17 symbols of authority," close quote.
18 What you were talking about there is that in order
19 to effectively discharge one's duties as a leader, you need
20 to act like a leader. Isn't that what you mean?
21 MR. PARSONS: Well, hold on. If you're going to
22 ask this witness what he meant in some publication he wrote
23 in the 1980s, I want him to read the context in which this
24 single sentence has occurred.
25 And then instead of suggesting some meaning to him
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1 -- well, no, you can ask him whatever question you want to.
2 But I want him to read the context in which this sentence is
3 found. And I hope this has some relevancy.
4 THE WITNESS: Well, as it says, humility is not
5 self-abasement.
6 MR. PARSONS: Well, Mr. Walters, I'd ask you to
7 read the context of that sentence quoted, and then we can
8 have the court reporter read back what the actual question
9 was.
10 THE WITNESS: Okay. Yes.
11 MR. PARSONS: Could you read back the question,
12 please?
13 (Record read.)
14 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Well, I object, it misstates
15 what the document says. The document speaks for itself.
16 Ambiguous.
17 You may answer.
18 THE WITNESS: Well, a president who refused to
19 accept that he was a president would not be an effective
20 president. He may be, like Abraham Lincoln, humble in that
21 position; or, like somebody else unnecessary to name, not
22 humble in that position.
23 But he has to accept that he has that position,
24 and he has to accept it gracefully. To try to back out of
25 it would be as much ego as to try to vaunt it.
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1 And so the delicate balance here is to accept
2 that, yes, you have a job. Father, mother, president,
3 whatever it might be. But you wear that title lightly,
4 because you know that underneath it all you're just another
5 child of God, and brother and sister to all other human
6 beings.
7 MR. GREENE: Q. And the job that you have to
8 accept is that you're the spiritual director of the Ananda
9 community. Right?
10 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. Argumentative.
11 You may go ahead.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course.
13 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, directing your attention to
14 page 6 of Exhibit 28 -- or 29, rather, excuse me, the last
15 paragraph. Tell me when you've got it.
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. And that's the paragraph before the bold writing.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. It says, quote: "To be given authority
22 over others is to be placed in a position of trust," close
23 quote.
24 Do you believe that acting in your role as
25 spiritual director of the Ananda community you are acting in
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1 a position of trust?
2 MR. PARSONS: Objection. "Trust," ambiguous. Go
3 ahead.
4 THE WITNESS: You're asking if I am acting. I
5 have to answer that I do my best to act.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And when you say that you
7 do your best to act -- and what you're talking about --
8 you're talking about acting in a trustworthy way. Correct?
9 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. That misstates
10 what he said. But -- so now the question before you --
11 THE WITNESS: That's a very different question,
12 isn't it?
13 MR. PARSONS: Well, yes. But that is the question
14 before you.
15 THE WITNESS: Do I act in a trustworthy way?
16 MR. GREENE: Q. No, no, not do you act. Do you
17 try to act in a trustworthy way?
18 A. Oh, yes.
19 Q. Because by virtue of your position as spiritual
20 director, you consider that position to be a position of
21 trust with respect to the people to whom you are a
22 director. Isn't that right?
23 MR. PARSONS: Could I have that question read back
24 again?
25 (Record read.)
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1 MR. PARSONS: The question is ambiguous, it
2 creates an assumption.
3 But go ahead.
4 THE WITNESS: Let me say that I do not for reasons
5 of position; I do it for reasons of my nature. I believe in
6 being trustworthy to fellow human beings. And obviously,
7 holding a position makes it important.
8 But I do not. I try to act like a noble,
9 dignified, trustworthy human being. I do my best.
10 Do I succeed? That's another issue.
11 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Now, when you are
12 endeavoring as spiritual director of the Ananda community to
13 act in a trustworthy manner, generally speaking, how do you
14 approach that?
15 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Objection. Vague, the term
16 "approach," calls for a narrative, it's also vague as to
17 time and circumstance.
18 If you can formulate a response, though.
19 THE WITNESS: Altogether too vague. However, I
20 can say this: That I always ask God to guide me, and I try
21 my best to follow that guidance.
22 It's too vague to be able to give specific answers
23 to a question of that nature.
24 MR. GREENE: Q. Let me try to make it a little
25 bit more specific and ask you this: When you are
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1 endeavoring to act in a trustworthy manner as spiritual
2 director of the Ananda community, do you consider it
3 important to be honest when providing counseling to an
4 Ananda member?
5 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Again, vague as to
6 "important," vague as to "honest," vague as to
7 "counseling."
8 You may respond, though.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 MR. GREENE: Q. And would you include in
11 endeavoring to be honest, if it was appropriate, disclosing
12 your own shortcomings?
13 MR. PARSONS: Okay. It's vague, it's ambiguous.
14 You can go ahead and answer, though.
15 THE WITNESS: One of the teachings of Yogananda
16 is, don't talk about your faults. Share them with God. But
17 other people won't understand; they will throw them up at
18 you.
19 This was even counseled between husband and wife.
20 Don't talk on that level, because it will -- the issue
21 between -- that's involved here is that action which will
22 help you and others to grow spiritually.
23 Now, I'll give you an example.
24 We have a rule against drinking at Ananda. One of
25 the members came to my house one time a few years ago
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1 staggeringly drunk. I knew that it was not something that
2 he was likely to do again. He was expressing a certain
3 little private rebellion.
4 I didn't say anything at the time or afterward. I
5 didn't talk about it, because I felt that, why talk about
6 something that would only be an affirmation of error? I
7 would rather affirm virtue, at least the virtue that people
8 are reaching out toward.
9 So no, I feel that my personal life is my
10 business. I think that everybody feels that I am doing my
11 best with that personal life. But I don't ask them, either,
12 to share their shortcomings with me when they come to me for
13 counseling.
14 I don't ask about shortcomings. I try to think,
15 how can I help them to get out of their little delusions,
16 whatever they may be, or big delusions.
17 I would like to go to the bathroom.
18 Mr. Greene, I think half an hour is about all we
19 can do. My brain is getting a little --
20 MR. GREENE: Okay. I'd be happy with a half an
21 hour more. I appreciate your effort.
22 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: We're going off the record
23 at 3:58 p.m.
24 (Recess from 3:58 p.m. to 4:01 p.m.)
25 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: We're back on the record at
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1 4:01 p.m.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. Mr. Walters, would you look at
3 page 8 of Exhibit 29, please?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. There, underneath the heading entitled "Leadership
6 Means Flexibility," you state, quote:
7 "It is not weakness in a leader to admit error.
8 Nor is it weakness to agree to other ideas than one's
9 own. The wise man knows that a fear of being thought
10 fallible is itself a proof of fallibility. Human
11 nature, after all, is fallible, and truth always wins
12 out in the end," close quote.
13 Do you include in what you intend to convey in
14 that passage that being open is a characteristic of a good
15 leader?
16 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Well, objection. The
17 document -- well, you're asking for his intent when he wrote
18 this; correct? Back in the 1980s, whether he intended to
19 include that statement you've just made.
20 That's --
21 THE WITNESS: "Open" is a very vague word. I
22 answered it much better before my little break right now.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. When you say "and the truth
24 always wins out in the end," in the context of people being
25 fallible, are you intending to convey that the way for truth
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1 to win out is for there to be a free flow of information
2 between the leader and his followers?
3 MR. PARSONS: Vague --
4 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
5 MR. PARSONS: First of all, I -- vague. He's
6 asking -- well, I don't know what he's asking.
7 I object in that this document was written a long
8 time ago. You're putting your question is the present
9 tense, so now I don't know if you mean when he wrote this,
10 or whether he means it now.
11 So vague as to time, and vague as to "free flow."
12 I don't know what that means, either. But go ahead.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's too vague. But I think I
14 answered it as well as I can in the answer I gave a few
15 minutes ago.
16 In other words, what kind of information, what
17 kind of free flow? What -- it's too vague. I think that he
18 has to be discriminating.
19 But if he's wrong, then truth is something
20 independent of him. And truth wins in the end anyway, so he
21 has to keep that in mind.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. When on the -- on page 9, in the
23 middle of the page, you -- well, let me withdraw that and
24 ask you this:
25 Today, as you sit here, are the principles and
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1 ideals regarding leadership that you have expressed in
2 Exhibit 29 -- those haven't changed for you over the years,
3 have they?
4 MR. PARSONS: Whoa, whoa. I object. We're
5 talking about a multi-page document here consisting of 16
6 pages.
7 The witness has not had an opportunity to read all
8 of this. The witness has also, also testified that this
9 document has been revised and amended since this Exhibit 29
10 was published.
11 The question, therefore, calls for speculation. I
12 don't even see how the witness can answer a question like
13 that.
14 But if you can remember everything that's in this
15 document, and you can compare that to your current mental
16 state, you may respond.
17 THE WITNESS: Well, I have to say that unless
18 somebody brings something to my attention and asks me about
19 it, because, as I have just said in this document, the human
20 mind is -- the human being is fallible.
21 So you might say, oh, but here is something. I'd
22 have to say, yes, you're right.
23 But given that possibility of being wrong, I stand
24 behind the book.
25 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Now, directing your
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1 attention to the middle of page 9, you state, quote:
2 "It might, then, be truer to say that a good
3 leader must first be a good listener. He must be motivated
4 by what is right, and therefore willing to listen to, and,
5 if reason dictates, to adopt, other points of view, even if
6 they should be in conflict with his own," close quote.
7 Now, with that passage in mind, is one of the
8 points that you seek to convey that a leader should be open
9 to points of view coming from his followers?
10 A. Coming from what?
11 MR. PARSONS: Objection.
12 MR. GREENE: His followers.
13 MR. PARSONS: His followers. Objection. Again,
14 you're mixing up your tenses. What he wrote then, you're
15 asking him what he wrote then versus what he means now,
16 because this -- what you're quoting is from 15 years ago.
17 It's also compound, it's argumentative.
18 But you can go ahead and answer if -- I'd ask the
19 question be read back.
20 THE WITNESS: No, I have it.
21 MR. PARSONS: Okay, good.
22 THE WITNESS: The issue is, first of all, the word
23 "follower." I don't think of having followers. I have
24 people who work with me in a joint project.
25 But then the question is, should he be open to
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1 listening to them. Absolutely.
2 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. How do you square -- well,
3 hold on. I'm going to withdraw that.
4 Do you see any conflict between what you just
5 stated about being willing to be open to points of view from
6 the people with whom you work and your position that you
7 have taken in this lawsuit that, for example, your
8 deposition transcripts should be sealed?
9 MR. PARSONS: Wait, objection. Okay. I've got to
10 object.
11 For example, the attorney-client privilege, the
12 deposition transcript and the sealing of it is a matter of
13 an attorney-client communication.
14 He cannot answer this question you've asked him,
15 as irrelevant as it is, without intruding into what his
16 attorney has told him.
17 I'm instructing him not to answer anything in that
18 regard.
19 The question is also argumentative, and it has --
20 again, it has nothing to do with anything that brings us
21 here today. We have talked ad nauseam about openness and
22 sharing and decision-making, all relative to things that --
23 statements made in 1980.
24 I'm going to instruct the witness not to answer
25 that question, Your Honor.
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1 JUDGE PLISKA: Yes. I'm going to sustain that
2 objection, Mr. Greene.
3 MR. GREENE: Q. All right. Directing your
4 attention to page 13 of the same exhibit, and underneath the
5 bold part, you state, quote:
6 "As a leader, you will get the best results for
7 the least effort if you work with those who are in tune with
8 your ideals."
9 MR. PARSONS: He's not on the same page. There
10 you go.
11 THE WITNESS: I heard it.
12 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. "Don't give a
13 disproportionate amount of energy to those who are not. If
14 you develop a nucleus of people who work well with you and
15 who work well together, others will be drawn into it. The
16 stronger the vortex of positive energy, the more effective
17 will be the work done. You will only dilute that energy if
18 you devote much time and attention to those who are not in
19 tune with it," end of quote.
20 Now, with respect to this passage, do you consider
21 your senior ministers as a nucleus of people who work well
22 with you?
23 MR. PARSONS: Objection. I guess your question
24 is, is, does he as he sits here today consider; or was it at
25 the time he wrote this?
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1 Since you've quoted this, is it at the time, or is
2 it today?
3 MR. GREENE: Q. It's a present tense question.
4 A. Present tense question. I don't think of people
5 as what their position is. I had a meeting recently in
6 which I invited somebody who I knew would take an opposite
7 stand.
8 But it was basically -- it's not whether they
9 agree or disagree; it's whether they fundamentally are
10 trying to do -- whether our goals are the same.
11 There are some people whose goals are not the
12 same. And when you start a community, if you ever get
13 involved in some big project, you'll find that many people
14 come to it with their own ideas of what their goals are, or
15 they only want to argue and criticize, without supporting
16 anything.
17 So I wasn't talking in terms of ministers,
18 nonministers. This person is not a minister. This person
19 is not a life member.
20 But I have known this person to be a person of
21 good will; and therefore, I invited her knowing that she
22 would take an opposite stand and welcoming that stand,
23 because I wanted to hear all sides.
24 So no, ministry, nonministry is not the issue.
25 But whether we all agree on what we're there for, that is an
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1 issue.
2 Q. You have senior ministers at Ananda. Right?
3 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Asked and answered.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm not exactly sure what it
5 means, but yes.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And you have life members
7 at Ananda. Right?
8 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Asked and answered.
9 THE WITNESS: Answered. Yes.
10 MR. GREENE: Q. Now, life members are individuals
11 who pledge their cooperative obedience to the spiritual
12 director, and who assist him in guiding the spiritual
13 community. Correct?
14 MR. PARSONS: Well, objection. I think it
15 misstates his earlier testimony. Also, vague as to time.
16 You may respond, though.
17 THE WITNESS: First of all, it's not a complete
18 definition by any means.
19 Secondly, no. By no means all life members are
20 working with me on things. But they're compatible with it,
21 rather than being naysayers.
22 MR. GREENE: Q. I want to direct your attention
23 to Exhibit 2, page 14.
24 A. That's this, is it?
25 MR. PARSONS: No. It's --
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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MR. PARSONS: Page 14.
3 THE WITNESS: Got it.
4 MR. GREENE: Q. Paragraph 36 reads, quote:
5 "The rules include the final vows taken by life
6 members, reflecting the highest level of commitment to
7 God, Guru and the Ananda Church. A member can take
8 final vows only after a minimum residence at Ananda
9 Village of 5 years. The final vows are for simplicity,
10 self-control, service and voluntary cooperation with
11 authority. Members promise to live their lives and
12 surrender to God's will and pledge their cooperative
13 obedience to the spiritual director and to those who
14 assist him in guiding the spiritual community," close
15 quote.
16 Now, the life members that you talk about in
17 paragraph 36 of Exhibit 2, those life members are the
18 equivalent of what you discuss in Exhibit 29 on page 13
19 about developing a nucleus of people who work well with
20 you. Isn't that right?
21 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Wait. Objection.
22 He's already testified concerning "nucleus of
23 people." It misstates his testimony, it's argumentative, it
24 assumes facts not in evidence. It's also vague as to time.
25 But you may respond.
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1 THE WITNESS: There's no way of answering that
2 question "yes" or "no."
3 MR. GREENE: Q. Why not?
4 A. Because some people are, some people aren't.
5 Q. Some people are life members, some people aren't
6 life members?
7 A. No. Some life members are part of a nucleus of
8 people who are really trying to do something; others are
9 there not so much as a core group as a group of people who
10 have lived long enough to demonstrate that they live in
11 harmony with their ideals, that they support them.
12 Voluntary obedience in itself means exactly that.
13 Not obedience. But they are given the option, up to a very
14 wide range of permissiveness, to obey or not obey. That is,
15 to agree and cooperate or not, according to their
16 conscience.
17 Nobody's forced to do anything. They still have
18 -- in other words, when we ask something, we don't say,
19 you've got to do it. We say, how do you feel about it?
20 Would you like to?
21 And if they say no, that's not a black mark
22 against them. It's simply that they don't do that.
23 Now you've asked me the question, are they all
24 life members, a part of that core group. I would say on
25 principle, no; and in fact, no.
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1 The principle is that many of them are -- well,
2 I've described them. They may be householders raising
3 children. I may never see them.
4 Q. Let me ask you this --
5 A. There are many people I don't see.
6 The other part, which I haven't finished
7 answering, is that I don't really have any way of defining a
8 core group. I'm not sure that it could be defined. It's
9 more that people who seem to like to work together and do
10 things, okay, we do it together.
11 But there's nothing formal about inner circle,
12 outer circle, core group, non-core group. It's strictly a
13 mythical definition.
14 Q. Okay. Now, there is a term used in Ananda, and
15 that term is "senior minister." Isn't that correct?
16 MR. PARSONS: Objection. That's been asked and
17 answered I think six, maybe eight times already.
18 You can answer again.
19 THE WITNESS: It's a very loose term, which I
20 myself don't know how to define. I could say it in terms of
21 their age, I could say it in terms of how long they've been
22 ministers. It's not a position that anybody holds.
23 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, let's go to page 29 of your
24 declaration, which is Exhibit 2.
25 And paragraph 71, you state, quote:
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1 "In 1993, there were 125 ministers residing at
2 Ananda Village, out of a total adult population of
3 approximately 250. Of the 125 ministers, 61 were
4 senior ministers or Lightbearers, 41 were ministers,
5 and 23 were assistant ministers," close quote.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. All right? Now, with that in mind, there is a
8 particular hierarchy of ministry within Ananda Village, is
9 there not?
10 A. The word "hierarchy" implies authority. We don't
11 speak in terms of authority.
12 But you've clarified for me right now a term I'd
13 forgotten. Lightbearers is identified with senior
14 ministers, so that's all right. I accept that now. I
15 didn't have it in my mind when we discussed it a moment ago.
16 They are not hierarchical in the sense of
17 archbishop, bishop, Monsignor, priest and that sort of
18 thing. That is to say, with authority over an X number of
19 people.
20 But they're more likely to be put in positions of
21 teaching and whatever.
22 Q. All right. And aren't people who are new to
23 Ananda advised that they should pay attention to and -- they
24 should be in tune with directions from senior ministers?
25 MR. PARSONS: Objection, as to the definition of
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893
1 people new to. Also, told. Told by whom? There's no
2 foundation for this witness to testify as to what they're
3 told.
4 And we've never -- also, vague as to the "in tune"
5 reference, which comes up a lot, and which has been already
6 defined generically.
7 Go ahead.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. And you put it in the position
9 of, people are told. Who tells them? How -- I have no
10 control over what people say.
11 I would say that in principle, it would be wiser
12 to listen to people who have been there longer or who have
13 been given such position, but not necessarily. That if they
14 speak, as I said, again, earlier -- if anybody, including
15 myself, says something that goes against anyone's
16 conscience, then he has a duty to God, not to me, to say,
17 no, I won't do that.
18 Now, whether that's happened or not is a totally
19 separate issue. But on principle, the thing that marks us
20 apart from most spiritual organizations is that we do not
21 claim authority in terms of position. If anybody claims it
22 for us, they're not saying the truth.
23 We claim the authority of truth, and try to make
24 the statement of truth clearly so that reason can be its own
25 defense.
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1 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. And when you talk about
2 reason being its own defense, do you consider the widest
3 possible dissemination of information to be essential to the
4 effective exercise of reason?
5 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Vague as to "widest possible
6 dissemination of information" -- actually, all those terms
7 are vague.
8 Vague as to "essential." It certainly assumes
9 facts not in evidence.
10 THE WITNESS: I just don't understand what you're
11 talking about.
12 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. You're talking -- you're
13 saying to me -- you're saying that the Ananda Village
14 doesn't work on the basis of coercion; it works on the basis
15 of free choice and reason. Correct?
16 MR. PARSONS: Well, that misstates what he said.
17 He never used the word "coercion"; free will.
18 MR. GREENE: Q. But that's what you're telling
19 me. Right?
20 A. Free will. This talk goes in so many circles, I'm
21 not quite sure what we're talking about. Maybe you'd like
22 to ask the question all over again.
23 Q. Okay. The question that I have for you is that
24 what you're telling me is that what differentiates the
25 Ananda community from other communities is that, according
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1 to you, the Ananda community operates not on coercion, but
2 on the basis of free choice. Right?
3 MR. PARSONS: Objection. That misstates his
4 testimony. But go ahead.
5 THE WITNESS: It misstates it well, however.
6 MR. GREENE: Q. And you agree with that; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And don't you also agree that in order to exercise
9 free choice, what you're talking about is making decisions.
10 Correct?
11 MR. PARSONS: Wait. Wait a minute. So --
12 MR. GREENE: Let me withdraw that and ask you
13 this:
14 Do you agree that when one makes a choice, one
15 makes a decision?
16 MR. PARSONS: Objection. Vague, ambiguous --
17 THE WITNESS: It really is. This is a
18 philosophical point. I'd have to really think about it.
19 MR. GREENE: Q. Well, think about it then. I'm
20 asking you.
21 MR. PARSONS: Well, you know, it's getting late in
22 the day for these abstruse, abstract philosophical
23 discussions.
24 Now, it's filled the whole day. But if the
25 witness says that at 4:20 in the afternoon he's not in a
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1 place to answer your question, then that's got to be your
2 answer now.
3 THE WITNESS: That's got to be the answer, because
4 I'd really have to think it over. I'd have to think all of
5 the possibilities.
6 Now, if I decide that I want a pizza, is that a
7 decision, or it's just -- I don't even know sometimes.
8 So it seems very -- no, I think you should get at
9 what you mean by that question, because I don't have it.
10 MR. GREENE: Q. I am getting at what I mean. And
11 what you told me was that in your view, what differentiates
12 the Ananda community from other communities is that it
13 operates on the basis of free choice.
14 MR. PARSONS: Wait a minute.
15 MR. GREENE: Q. Not on coercion. Correct?
16 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Now you're asking the witness
17 to tell you under oath what he said a few minutes ago under
18 oath, when he's already expressed ambiguity and confusion on
19 the whole issue, to which I am totally sympathetic at this
20 point.
21 I am going to instruct the witness not to testify
22 to what his testimony has just been. It's in the record,
23 and it's clear.
24 If you want it, let's read back the record.
25 MR. GREENE: No, I've got a pending question.
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1 MR. PARSONS: I'm instructing him not to answer
2 that question.
3 JUDGE PLISKA: Yes. I think you need to -- you
4 used the word "coercion," for instance, which is not a word
5 that he used.
6 So why don't you do what Mr. Parsons suggests, or
7 rephrase your entire question.
8 MR. GREENE: Q. Okay. Mr. Walters, is it your
9 testimony that there is no coercion of any sort within the
10 Ananda community?
11 MR. PARSONS: Okay. I will say -- I'll object
12 that that misstates what his testimony has been.
13 I would not object if you put it in the form of a
14 question.
15 MR. GREENE: It is a question.
16 MR. PARSONS: Okay. Well, again, you know, I
17 don't want to be too, too technical here. But now you're
18 asking him what his testimony was.
19 MR. GREENE: No, I said "is," Mr. Parsons. It's
20 present tense.
21 MR. PARSONS: Is --
22 THE WITNESS: Well, I can answer it all right.
23 MR. PARSONS: Well, all right. As long as my
24 objection is clear. Give him an answer to this new
25 question.
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1 THE WITNESS: If there is a question of absolute
2 right and wrong, and somebody refuses to go along with it,
3 and that refusal affects the lives of other people, and not
4 just the individual, then I don't think it's fair to speak
5 of coercion.
6 But if you want to, you can, because there is a
7 time when you have to take a stand. To say, no, this is not
8 something that we can permit or endorse.
9 And it's not -- when we speak of giving people
10 free choice, it has to be within the latitude of truth. I
11 gave you the example of, if somebody wants to start a
12 butcher shop. That's against our principles. We're not
13 into violence, and we are vegetarian. And although we don't
14 force vegetarianism on people, it is an Ananda practice.
15 So it would be prohibited, you might -- if you
16 like, to open a butcher shop on Ananda property.
17 We would not say you can't open a butcher shop
18 somewhere else if you like to. It would be pretty well
19 understood that that's just not the sort of thing that we do.
20 So it's not coercion in the normal sense. If
21 somebody wants to take away somebody else's husband from his
22 wife, then I think that a strong statement needs to be made
23 that this is not something we can endorse. We cannot
24 prohibit it, we cannot endorse it.
25 We have to say that this is not our way of life,
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1 and we have to do everything we can, within the limits of
2 fair play, because people have a right to get divorced,
3 people have a right to -- but not with our permission or
4 support.
5 Therefore, we need to make a very definite
6 statement, and we have to make it in the belief that it is
7 wrong, and we will stand for that. As a decision, not just
8 a choice.
9 MR. GREENE: Q. And in fact, you as the spiritual
10 director have the authority in Ananda that when you believe
11 that something is wrong in the sense of adversely impacting
12 other people, you can step in and call a halt to it, can't
13 you?
14 A. Yes.
15 It's 4:30.
16 MR. GREENE: It's a good time to top.
17 THE VIDEO OPERATOR: This is the end of videotape
18 number 14 in the deposition of Donald Walters. We're going
19 off the record at 4:27 p.m.
20 (Time noted, 4:27 p.m.)
21 --o0o--
22
23 ________________________
24 Signature of the Witness
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